Transcript - Zennie Trieu Interview
(note - there may be typos in this transcript since it was done fairly quickly)
Martin: Today we have Zennie Trieu, and she's here to talk a little bit about her own acting career and some of her accomplishments and some marketing strategies that she uses. So Zennie welcome. Thanks so much for taking some time to chat with us. I'd like to just have you give us a little bit of background on yourself. Like how did you get into acting and what would you say are one or two of your biggest accomplishments that you're most proud of to date?
Zennie: Thanks for having me. I grew up in Northern New Jersey in the suburbs. I could see the Empire State Building from my bedroom window. It's really close to the city. I got accepted to a vocational high school at the end of my freshman year, like 2010. We had to declare a major and I had no idea what I wanted my major to be because I was 15. I just remember seeing a performance ensemble/acting major final, end of the year performance. I was like, "Oh, like I want to do that!" I declared my major at the end of my freshman year with having really no acting experience, it was great. I used the monologue from the Cinderella Story where Hillary Duff is alongside Chad Michael Murray waiting for rain in this drought. It was a great three years, so much fun and really great friendship. Then when it came time to apply for college, obviously I was like, well now there's only one I could call for acting. I got into NYU. I don't know if you know a lot of people who've gone to NYU but their studio system is very specific so you spend the first two years in one studio called your primary studio. Each studio is differentiated by acting technique.
It's really based off of your initial audition to get into the program. Then after that if you want to go on to a different studio for your secondary training or if you want to stay in your studio. My first two years were spent in my [inaudible 02:26] which were literally anyone who's ever been to acting school, is kind of like the people's acting technique, which is what I also happened to be studying during high school. So I had six years of my cert training. Then by 2015 going into my junior year, I transferred to the film and TV studio which, in addition to helping you with camera work, commercial, auditioning, there were a lot of classes about being part of the industry which I found to be helpful. I was taught by casting directors, previous managers, previous agents. I graduated two years ago in 2017. Got really lucky. I say that because I know this is maybe not normal or maybe I don't know it, but I got signed to up my current agent right after I graduated. So I've been with the same agency for on camera commercial for two years now.
It's just been like a really great time. I know everything I say sounds so corny and like a fairy tale, but I had no idea growing up that was going to be an actor. I thought I was going to be like as dancer or a journalist. Which to be honest with you, I'm actually also writing and performing with dance. Like tonight I’m literally performing ballet electric for dance. So it's like all these dreams are coming true. But I feel like acting is really the solid ground I needed for performing arts training and often just to feel like a vulnerable human. In my normal day to day life acting school really takes away all the pretense of social interaction ideally and then it really helps me get to the hardest thing. It makes you empathetic when you read stories, you read paper or when you're doing live performance. So that's where I'm at now. I just turned 24. If I would have been a dancer that would be old sadly. But, I think I'm still pretty young. It still kind of feels like things are just starting. I was just reviewing my CV, my regular resume for regular non-acting jobs. I was like surprised by how much work I had to present and write down in just like the past few years. So it's been really surprising and obviously there were a lot of people who helped me along the way. That was a very specific run down of my life.
Martin: Cool. No, that's good. A lot of people who listen to interviews want to know about the background of the person and what they're doing. But if you had to kind of summarize your one or two biggest accomplishments, what specifically would you say that they are and what factors do you think contributed most to you accomplishing them?
Zennie: I would say one of the accomplishments that I rave about is… I actually just celebrated my four year anniversary with my partner. I met him the first day of acting school, we were friends first. I just want to say this is not really marketing but in your personal life it is very important I think to have a solid foundation of friendship before you enter a romantic relationship with someone. That being said we were friends first and then we got together halfway through NYU. Then a year after graduation I had a friend who went to NYU for film and TV. I think in the film and TV, undergrad programs, you have three major projects and I think they're kind of the big three that you kind of show off at the end of graduation. So for an intermediate the second project is a really personal piece about two friends and there are a lot of feelings involved concerning the Beatles. Ethan, my film and TV friend asked me if I wanted to do it and I was like, "Yes!" Then he was like instead of auditioning random guys for the other part can we ask Evan your boyfriend to do it with you and obviously do a chemistry test to see if it works. Then I offered it to Evan and he was like, "Yeah, let's do it." So it was so much fun to act with your partner... that was a huge surprise. I like feel like that's only something you hear with like Warren [inaudible 07:26]. Not to compare myself, but it was a really great experience. That was actually my first student film where an acting teacher wasn't involved and it was so professional, everyone really took care of each other. There was no gossiping or being on your phone while people were shooting. Craft Services is great. I felt like everyone really cared and they're so young, they were like freshmen and sophomores in college. I felt like that was such a big thing and just to have them be a part of that was really optimistic because I had been out of college for a year and then you got people who are like, "Oh yeah, I was back in school," but they're like jaded now. Or like, "Oh yeah, I used to act, but real life got in the way." So it was nice to be around people who didn't feel that way. People who were still really invested in their dreams and respectful of the process.
I can actually send you that link because it's on Vimeo. I’m super, super proud of the work and also Evan and everyone on the crew, especially Ethan, did a really, really great job. I'm really excited to have people see it because it's really such a beautiful product of fantastic teamwork. Then this is actually something that I think I'm just telling you for accountability, but not related to acting, I actually got into a fiction writing workshop from October to December of last year. I went into it thinking I was going to write a novel, but then I was like, "No, I'm not going to write a novel." By the way, at the end of that workshop my teacher talked about getting headshots and thanks to you Martin I already had headshots that worked really great for acting and for writing. The versatility there is really evident. I just thought about how I didn't want to write a novel, but I still wanted to write. I'm actually in the process of writing a collection of plays that are modern retelling of Greek mythology. So it'll kind of be like Jason and the Medea, but they're graduating from school or that kind of thing. Or presenting work at a restaurant. He comes and sexually harasses her. I’m being very glib about it, but I have so much fun writing. I'm actually friends with someone who is a theater company creator and her whole thing is modern mythology. So who knows, maybe at the end of the year there might be a production coming up, but it's still very nascent.
Nothing is really certain yet, but I'm really proud to be talking about it because I had no idea I was going to get a workshop, let alone have this idea. So I think if there's someone [inaudible 10:30] be really, really open. Even as an actor you don't have to just be an actor, you can open yourself up to other things and you can get away with that when you're an actor because everything you do informs you about human behavior. So writing and reading opens you up, dancing opens you up to utilizing your body and spacial awareness, falling in love, obviously helps with your emotional prep for roles. So yeah, it's really okay and encouraged, I think to do things other than act, I think if you want to be a professional actor.
Martin: I like that. We talked actually a little bit about that with an interview with another actor that I did recently, who does writing and does some of his own film projects outside of acting. One of the questions that I asked him was do you feel like your other projects help you network and move your career forward? So I'd like to also ask that to you. Besides the fact that you're going to become a better actor by writing, which is super important because you're experiencing other things, but do you also feel like you meet new people and it actually can help you in other ways?
Zennie: Oh yeah, definitely. This is so funny because I just had a conversation about LinkedIn. By the way I don’t have social media, which I know can be very hurtful, but just mentally, it's just not for me. But I literally told someone LinkedIn is the opposite of me. When I hear the word networking, I'm like you mean just making friends, like moving your career forward, you mean to enjoy life? I feel like all the things that people thought when they think about their career, also I say this because I spent a year after graduation working in a corporate company. It was like a very, very, very officey job. Full time, fashion company. I will never do it again. I did it for the money. I'm so sorry I sold out, but then I was like "No, I’m very unhappy." So when I think about ways to help move forward, I actually try to not think that way because I feel like we calculate it like there’s an end product or like I will be this threshold in my life or I will have this social network of people I can reach out to. I feel like it's just more about meeting people that you actually like spending time with and if you happen to collaborate with one another that’s great. But the collaboration I think is not the point. I think the point is to have people in your life who support you in whatever you do professionally, socially, personally, whatever. Then when you think about these acting projects are not or submitting yourself for something, whether it be a role or a job, I think it's really more about am I going to enjoy this? If I devote this amount of time, am I going to get something out of it other than just something to add to my resume? Because it kind of feels like the point is not to back up your acting resume but have stories to tell at a cocktail party or a long list of friends that you can reach out to if you’re in need.
It’s really more about for me just added things to your life that you really like and if something cool comes out of it. Like this potential collaboration between me and my friends [inaudible 14:34] was so unexpected then it that popped up, I'll take it. But I never went into my friendship with her or this workshop with that in mind. I feel like being product oriented can really hurt your process and make you always feel like you're always behind in some way. Then when you actually see that threshold if you're very goal oriented then might feel not satisfied because it's kind of built it up in your head. I think like the best part about writing is the writing, not so much if this play is going to be on stage or is if this novel is going to have a book with my name on the cover. It’s just the actual process itself. I know that’s so corny but whenever you go to a party, I just went to a mixer yesterday [inaudible 15:33] and my manager was like, "Hey, try to network with people." I'm like, "Well when you say that do you just mean try to have a good time and have a conversation with people?" Which is great [15:49] let me network with people. But I would consider referring that to be like, "Hey, let's just have a good time. I'm feeling good so let me spread that good energy around me so other people are feeling good." That kind of thing.
Martin: Totally. A lot of people when they think of networking and moving their career forward, they kind of think like you said, it's calculated and they think like, "Networking, no, that's so sleazy or something." One thing that I'm a big fan of is rather than thinking, "Let me network with people," just think, "Let me connect with people, have conversations." Just kind of enjoy the process because when you don't enjoy what you're doing or when you feel like it's not authentically you, then it kind of gets to this point where you wind up getting stuck. So that's a question. Tell us about do you have opinions on how important it is to authentically be yourself versus trying to do everything like that? Both in terms of marketing yourself or moving your career forward. But also perhaps even more importantly in terms of like auditioning and playing characters.
Zennie: I think one thing that very young people, and I don't include myself in that category, so it's great to be respectful, like when an important figure comes you want to be respectful and humble. But I also feel like when some people go to acting school, they are taught that you are going to try to make yourself the most impressive actor as possible to meet professional casting directors, managers and directors. I think "No, like that's not the only thing that's going on." You do have a lot to offer. But I would also say that you have a lot to offer more so than just your previous body of work of what you could potentially do as an actor and future projects. I think it's very important to also characterize yourself in ways that remind yourself that you're human. So maybe you're a really brilliant actor, but at the same time you might also just be like a very, very patient person and that's so important onset. Maybe you know that like if there's ever an emotional scene you're able to just kind of like respect it but also not be like stop caring. Like you can still crack a joke half of the time, be flexible. I think it's really important if you want to use the term marketing, when you market yourself, like what comes with being an actor and having your training and the roles that you want in your mind and your capability. You're also still human.
So I wouldn't downplay you as a person. I would actually upplay that so that you become more well-rounded. It shows that yes, you're there to do a job and to support a project, but you're also going to help everyone have a good time. Like if you're the kind of person who, I don't know, has a lot of trivia facts in their mind that is a fantastic way first off the bat, be really engaging and it'll make you more memorable. I'm not trying to give tips to make people be arbitrarily impressive. But it's really great to have a person walk into the room and she really gets to know a person in 10 seconds or less in a really effortless authentic way. I think that really shows how much people want to work with you, if you're not afraid to really show off who you would be if you were to be on set. So walk into a room, know that if you don’t get the role it's like whatever, because rejection is 90% of the business and I don’t take it personally anymore. But also show off who you would be if you did get the role or if you did get the project. What kind of person would you be like during down moments or what kind of person would you be waiting in line for craft services? Embrace that because it'll really help people figure out if this is a collaboration that they want to happen for this specific project. If it doesn't end up happening, it's not something personal. It's just kind of like, "Oh, maybe this wouldn't necessarily work for this project." Then move on and know that because you were able to show yourself off authentically, there's that much higher of a likelihood that the person will remember you for their next project.
Martin: Yeah, that's an awesome tip. It’s so important. A lot of people think that they need to be someone other than themselves when they're going out. They want either their photo way too retouched or they want to hide angles and everything. If you're authentically you and you're playing characters and being authentically yourself you'll get called in and cast for the best possible roles that are specifically for you. You'll work with the people who are meant to work with you and you'll do your best work, which results in referrals and more work down the line. Rather than being some fake version that's all about promotion. I mean, you have to do certain things for promotion and stuff, but you need to also be authentically you and do what's most comfortable for you. Which actually leads into my next question. You had mentioned earlier that you don't like social media and don't really use it. Some actors believe that even if they don't like it, they have to use it to promote themselves. This whole conversation so far is about being authentically you and doing what you're comfortable with. So what would you say to people who think that they have to use social media? How do you get by without it?
Zennie: This is so funny. I remember during my writing workshop, I'm also going to hyperlink the writing workshop, but no one's paying me to talk about this workshop. I’m just genuinely excited to talk about it. During one class, the class is all about promotion and furthering your career, my teacher said that some people in the writing and publishing initiative really believe that if you don't use Twitter you're basically nonexistent. I said this straight up, I've never had a Twitter account since I was like a freshman in high school. I was just totally different person in high school. But I was like, oh well I don't want to download Twitter. Sadly I was already off Facebook and Instagram. If you're a visual artist, like a sculptor, painter, Instagram is also the equivalent of that. I thought about it and I was like, "Do I want to reach out with social media?" But I thought about why it makes me uncomfortable and everyone has a set of ethics and literally 90% of my friends are on Facebook and Instagram and I still love them very much. So it's not all about everyone has to be like me. But just personally for me I really dislike corporations so I just hate Facebook. With Instagram and WhatsApp I don't like how they're feeding very unhealthy capitalistic tendencies. I also don't like how social media for me feels like a cop out from my authentic self. I remember when I was writing, something I enjoy doing because I'm a nerd. When I was writing essays and I had Facebook in the background, it was so easy for me to check myself out of the creative process. Maybe it's because I have the self-control issue, but maybe because it was so normalized for people to just be scrolling through their phone, like while they're at dinner with a potential client or when they're with their significant other and they're still on their newsfeed. I just feel like it was really distracting.
But also it took away time for me to just be by myself or really be with other people to process my emotions which is so important when you're doing emotional work for characters. Or just figuring out myself, what I wanted my life at that point to look like. I think that if it is really necessary no one is really going to convince you otherwise. So whatever instinct you have, just go with it. Like if you hate social media but you think it's a necessary evil don't shame yourself, don’t hate yourself. Do it because you feel it's like a necessary part of your life. But if you feel like you can relinquish it, there's more than one way to row. I don't know if I want to pull myself up as a pillar of that example or anything. But I think some people literally don’t eat meat and they get their protein from other sources. Spoiler alert, I am one of those people. I gave up meat for lent and then then I gave it up forever. You can do that, you can give up something that you thought was necessary. I used to eat burgers all the time and now I'm just like actually it’s possible to just let go of something that you thought was so important before. I think now how I really have to find protein other ways. Then if that's the case, I can figure out how to connect with other people in a different way. If you don't like social media because you don't like how everything is digital then take yourself out to like parties and functions.
Especially if you're already socially inclined to do that. It's just like do more of that. If you're the kind of person who really likes to advertise with a status update then text all your friends. Your friends are your friends for a reason. I personally love individually texting people with updates of my life and what my projects are as opposed to sending it out to the internet and having someone I've not met for four years to see that. It feels weird to me that someone like that would know what's going on in my life. But for people who do update their status, update, what have you, it works for them. I think there’s more than one way to be successful. By the way, also just don’t compare yourself to other people because success is always, always idiosyncratic. You will really kick yourself in the foot if you start to play that game where you're like, "Oh well this person has more followers, this person has this sponsorship on YouTube." Do you want to be Instagram famous or do you want to be a beauty blogger? If the answer is no, there's no reason why you have to compare yourself, you’re your own person and your standards if yourself are completely your own. So yeah, for my friend who was literally a beauty blogger, getting the sponsorship from Urban Decay might be her threshold of success. Whereas for me, I feel like my threshold of success would be like something completely different, not related to YouTube or beauty products at all and that's so, so fine. It’s just releasing yourself from standard expectations and setting up your own expectations. That success looks like.
Martin: That's excellent, awesome tips. When you think about it, people are successful in all different areas. There's people who are really successful who don't have social media pages. I have social media pages but I don't actually use them very much. My method of how I like to communicate is usually through email and blogging. Other people don't like anything to do with the Internet and just want to network all the time. So if you figure out what you most enjoy doing, then you're being authentically you and you'll also be able to continue following through. Some people who don't like Twitter and try posting for like two months, usually give up after that time period and then they just kind of stop. So you've got to find what you most enjoy doing and you can move your career forward that way.
Zennie: Right. I actually really like that. I think it's important to literally test out what you suspect could be useful. So obviously before I was off social media for good, I tested it out. Like I would try to like not touch it for like a week and then I ended up finding out that that week was really awesome. So I prolonged it and now it's like forever thing. Or I think you should always have out things that you feel like could be meaningful. Maybe you've always been abstaining from social media but you find that Twitter is really, really fun and you're like, "Wait, I don't like social media except Twitter." Then go for it and embrace the fact that you’re a person who's capable of change. Who you are today, is hopefully not going to be the person who you are tomorrow because you're constantly evolving and changing. So if you call me again for another interview in like six months, who knows how I would be different? I mean I think I would still probably be off social media and not be eating meat. But maybe my views on acting have changed. Maybe I don't want to be an actor anymore. Maybe I just want to be a writer full time. It’s okay to embrace for yourself that sometimes what you think will happen won't, but that's not a bad thing or just [inaudible 29:57]. It's okay to be open to the mystery of your career as your life. I think keeping yourself open to change and possibility is the only way you're going to have a career that you are proud of, rather than trying to anticipate your next move, your next goal. It's exhausting and wrinkles will show. So don't do that to yourself
Martin: My next question is, are there certain things that you tend to do on a daily or weekly basis to get paid acting work? Tell us a bit about them and how they've contributed to helping you get those paid jobs and moving your career forward.
Zennie: So my answer is no, I don't do that. I am super disciplined in a lot of other ways. But for me, I feel like I am very committed to acting and therefore to give it the respect it deserves I actually know my moneymaker. I actually do not depend on it for money because I mean, honestly, as we start to depend on something or someone for money your relationships start to get a little f***** up. For me, I feel like it's super important to have each job. When I met with my agent two months ago, he's just like, "But you have a day job right?" I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "Good, keep it." So luckily for me, my day jobs are directly related to the arts. So I'm not seeing it as [inaudible 31:41]. However, I also have a lot of experience in the service industry and for some people it's great because you constantly improvise or interact with other people. For me, I work with arts and education nonprofits. So I'm teaching acting and dance and poetry and it’s really great to be with the company. With that being said it gives me the freedom to just not worry about acting because you can't. Like what I was saying before, you can't anticipate the amount of work that will be available.
The summer is usually slow because people are not shooting as much in industry and the union. But a lot of people could be doing student films because they're freshly graduated and they're really excited. So there's no way to really anticipate what every week is going to look like. Backstage, you could refresh it today and then tomorrow because it’s super, super different. I think as long as you don't make [acting] your main source of income, you're open to the flexibility of, this week is pretty slow for audition. Next week you're auditioning back to back to back and that's super fine. If it is really quiet for a few days or even a few weeks that's fine because you're trapped in the long term longevity of your career. I never ever base my entire career off of just a short period of a few days or a few weeks. So my tips for that would be 1, Checking yourself. So if you’re having a really slow season for acting, the next time you get an audition, who cares? No one's gonna know you had a slow season unless you tell them. It's not a big deal because you're going to be acting for like years or even decades. This low period will be so small and fractional compared to the big picture. 2, accept roles that are very random. The one that I looked for tonight, I happened to meet this guy last summer and I did a show with him and then I didn't hear from him for like 10 months. Randomly he was like, "Oh, we'll have another show and I thought of you," and I was like, "Awesome." That's just another example of being surprised. I literally have not thought of him since then.
Not because I'm a jerk, but because you know, we worked together once and it was a good time and that was kind of it. But now it's kind of like, "Oh, the least expected person to come out and offer something to me just did." 100%, I'm gonna say yes. Other things like keep yourself healthy, make sure you're take care of yourself. It's okay if it happens, but if mentally or physically you're not in a great place, but you are getting a lot more dishes than offers, I would never recommend someone push themselves past their limits just accept that work. People are really understanding. No professional person is going to take it personally. If you really just cannot accept a role, trust that your career is going to be long and just say no. You have the power to not say yes to everything that comes your way and burn yourself out. You can burn yourself out as an actor. So in order to make sure your career is healthier and longer I would say try not to just focus on the very quick pleasure of short term stuff, if that makes sense.
Martin: I think that that is awesome advice. A lot of actors have in their mind and pretty much anybody if they run their own business or they freelance, they have it in their mind that if they have a source of income besides what's coming from their goal, like they're acting career or whatever, that means that they're like failing or something. But that's not necessarily the case because the problem is if you're needy, money is a very real thing and if you're extremely in-need of money, you'll come across as needy and you'll look desperate in your auditions. You'll take on, like you said projects or you’ll work with people who aren't best suited for you. That means that you're not being authentic and true to who you are, which means you're going to do worse work. You're going to be seen as somebody who's kind of desperate and it's gonna keep you in that sort of situation where you're hungry and you're needing more work, and it's kind of like a vicious downward cycle. As soon as you can kind of free yourself from that, you become much less stressed and you actually do better in your auditions and things just start happening. You wind up finding an agent or finding something that could be really helpful. So it's definitely not a failure if you have an outside income. Until that point comes where maybe you're so in demand that everything is back to back and you want to quit that job to have more free time. But there's no rush.
Zennie: Yes, exactly. There is no rush. I just want to add a few things to that. 1, I think for the most part our only job in life is just enjoy a very short amount of time we have on this earth. It’s great that if you like acting, you want to make a career out of it. But if you find yourself accepting acting roles that make you extremely unhappy then don't. You're never defined by one acting job. 2, I would say that, maybe this is really messed up, but to be honest with you when I act or write I literally never think about money. But I'm not saying that because I'm super rich or anything like that. I don't live paycheck to paycheck, but I figured out a way to have a day job where I actually really like my coworkers and like what I do. I love working with kids. It is so humanizing and humbling because kids are just better than us. It's so great. I love my job. I would shout it from the rooftops. That gives me the freedom to just not think about a quantifiable amount of money when I'm auditioning, when I'm submitting myself for something. Then when you do get paid, it's like all the more pleasurable because it's like what I have been alluding to for this whole conversation. Just the unexpected surprises that life throws your way. Also, I say this because I know how privileged this can come off, but especially when you're young.
I would be so okay with not accepting money for every acting or writing or dance job I do because 1, it makes you more disciplined in finding a day job that you'll like. Because everyone, I feel like when they're fresh, they're like, "Oh, I don't need a day job." I'm like, "Dude, working hard actually feels really, really good." Whether you're bartending or your teaching or you’re in carpentry, working hard makes you feel really good. You work hard when you're acting too, but when you ask too much it kind of becomes like, "Oh my God, I've been writing so much, I have nothing to produce anymore." So it's really good to get that balance with the day job and your creative life. But also a lot of my favorite projects I never got paid for. It was a favor like my shoot with Ethan or I didn't get paid a lot of money. But I got paid in non-monetary ways. There's different forms of capital. Economic capital is easy because it's money. Social capital is the friendships that you make, AKA your network if you want to think of it like that. There's cultural capital, where you learn about something that you probably never would have encountered otherwise. Then there's also all the fun parts of being on set, having a character you really, really, like, and having something for your reel. There's more than one way to get paid is what I'm trying to tell you and it doesn't have to be in a dollar amount. But I know that for some people the dollar amount is really, really important. So I would try to work really hard to make a life for yourself that you're proud of where you are healthy, you're eating and able to pay rent and just relinquish yourself from the stress of considering every acting job as a job. It's more about the acting and the job component is secondary. Does that makes sense?
Martin: Yeah, totally. I'd like to ask you just in terms of auditioning, do you have one, two, maybe three top tips that you can give to an actor who struggles to get called back after auditioning?
Zennie: This is going to sound literally like I'm the worst person ever, but I actually really love auditioning. I don't know how it is because I literally have depression and anxiety, but I have no anxiety when it comes to auditioning. I really like myself. I cannot wait to meet other people and show myself off. I just have conversations. I think if you do, it's so normal and I know what I'm doing is totally abnormal. Just know that if you've got an audition you already made it, they called you in for an audition. They were like, "Here’s your time slot, come on in." They want you, they like you, they’re interested in you. You already kind of passed a certain threshold, you got it. Similar to how I don't think about the money, I also don't think about the call back so that I can set myself up for positive surprise only. But it's like the audition is the guide itself. [inaudible 42:22] with a call back and then end up with a job, great. But the audition is the fun part, like meeting someone who has cool ideas to offer, dressing up in an outfit that you look super hot in, or really great for character.
Maybe you don’t get to dress in an outfit like that every day or just showing off you're acting talk and having a great time. The audition is the event, it’s not a precursor to anything. It's not the appetizer entree. I literally don’t get a call back and I’m like, "Let’s do it all over again but in a different way with slightly more confidence [inaudible 43:04]." Then lastly I'd say that I don't really get self-conscious when I'm not auditioning a lot because of that [inaudible 43:20]. I haven’t auditioned for a while or if I'm kind of seeking a mini break from acting to focus on my day job or to focus on my mental health or just focus on my relationship with people, that's not a defeat. That's not like I'm giving up on my acting dream. It's more of like I have to take care of myself as a human being before I can get back into acting. So it's okay to not audition all the time. Then you'll get better, you'll feel more confident about other areas of your life and then you’ll audition all the time. So it’s just the edge and flow of your career to really embrace that. You don't have to be auditioning all the time, all year round to be a proud, confident, successful actor. It really is more of the attitude that you have in your life. God forbid you don't do anything acting related for 10 years and then you get an audition. You could still have that confidence that you had 10 years prior because inherently, you know you're always going to be an actor.
Martin: Your perspectives on things are really great. In your perspective, if I kind of had to summarize it I would say that you are all about the enjoyment of acting and doing it for the love of it to rather than trying to make it into some methodical process that kind of gets you stuck, you just kind of move forward and naturally and enjoy the process, which is amazing.
Zennie: I just want to point out really quickly. Giving a quick chat to my parents. I am a daughter of two parents who didn't get past high school and they actually are both immigrants. So for them, me going to college was expected but going to acting school was not expected. They've been supportive and the only time we were not supportive was when I was getting so stressed in a non-healthy way. I just remember my mom once saying, "Listen, if you don't like acting just do something else. I only want you to do something if you like it." Also it's okay to admit maybe down the line or during a temporary break, maybe you just don’t like acting that much and you want to focus on other things. But I really think that people enslave themselves to things that maybe they decided was right a while ago but is no longer true. But, if you like it then keep doing it and if not take a break for a minute and come back when you like it even more. I agree with you. I really am about the enjoyment of whatever you do in your life.
Martin: My next question, I could kind of guess maybe based on our conversation what your answer might be. A lot of actors have it in their mind that they need to get an agent. You said that you got your agent essentially out of luck partially. But I was just wondering, do you have any advice or what would you say to an actor who's like, "I need to get an agent?" Do you have a strategy for them to get an agent or would you suggest that it'll come naturally? What's your thoughts?
Zennie: I want to first introduce an example of my friend who was literally a refugee from Russia. So she's here on political asylum. She literally books a lot but she has never had a manager or an agent, she just worked her ass off. She’s on Backstage, Casting Networks. She works hard and she knows that even if she never got a manager or agent she would still work hard. Now I'm going to give you a big spoiler alert in the industry: Even when you get an agent or a manager, you still have to work really hard. During my meeting with my agent, there's a secret that maybe I will get fired for saying, but we don't stop working hard once you get a manager or an agent, you still are working at the same pace that you were. So here's the thing, if you don't like working hard, don't be an artist. I still find my own auditions and a lot of the work that I've gotten hasn't been because my agent sent me out. But I love my agent so sometimes the work I get is because of my agent. But it's not like I relinquish the responsibility of finding work to somebody else. I'm still doing my part in vouching for myself. So honestly it doesn't really matter if you have an agent or a manager. I would say no, but maybe I’m spoiled and not self-aware because I've had one for a couple of years. But I don't know. I feel like it really is about your work ethic. Also, should you get a manager or agent, they can tell if you're a weak spot. They probably will want to work with you because they want to vouch for you and send you out and get their commission.
But they also don't want to do all the work that you should be doing. Here's the thing about confidence. When you find yourself submitting yourself, whether or not you have an agent or manager on the sidelines to help you out, you won't love applying or submitting the same way you will love auditioning. But you will love to send out your resume and headshot and be like, "Hey here I am, super excited about this project. I hope you'll consider me for this role." It'll be a pleasure in your life. You'll wake up in the morning looking forward to when you get to go to your laptop to submit yourself. That's working hard but not feeling like working hard is depleting you. Again, based on how much you enjoy being an actor you're going to love the fact that you get to live in the day and age where you can submit yourself so easily on the computer. I think not only do the agents and managers like it even more because sending you out is going to be easy for them. They're gonna know and trust that every time you walk into the door and meet someone you're just a pleasure to be around, even if it's like for five seconds. They're gonna trust that you're professional, that if you commit to a date or a call back or shoot you're not going to fail. You know what I mean? They're just going to trust you because you can trust yourself. But they're only going to do it if they feel like you enjoy the work that comes with being an actor. Because being an actor still a job so you have to work hard.
Martin: That's excellent. As we wrap this up, I have a final sort of two-part question for you. Which is just in general, is there any advice that you would like to give to an actor who sort of feels stuck or feels like their career's kind of been at the same place for a while? Anything that you'd like to say to them, either about what they should be doing or even what they should avoid doing? Do you have anything like that to finish up with?
Zennie: Don’t decide how things are going to go before it's time to. If I had during any point in the last few years been like, "You know what, I just haven't been getting a lot of work. No one has thought of me. I'm kind of done acting," I probably would not have these subsequent offers and projects that I got. No one has ever forced you to make a decision like, "Hey, are you still an actor or are you not?" It’s okay to sometimes just be a person in the world. Sometimes when people ask me, "So what do you do?" I tell them right off of the bat I blah blah blah blah blah. I always say like, "I'm an actor and that's true whether I’m performing tonight or I haven't auditioned in two months. It's always true. It's kind of just the fact of your life, you don't have you open a timeline where you're like, "Oh it's been six months and nothing’s happened, I guess I'm just not an actor anymore." No, that's not true. Maybe you're going to get to a point where you really feel like maybe you're a parent and you're like, "I'll act if something convenient comes up, but I can have a priority like my kids." That's fine. That’s not a defeat, that’s you vouching for yourself as a person. Maybe you're in Grad school, maybe you’re in law school and right now you really want to be a law student and then acting will be on the back burner. That’s so fine too.
There's nothing better than meeting an actor who has confidence in him or herself as a human being because you're right, it comes off as less desperate when a project is on the table. But it also just makes you fun to be around and people want to only work with people where it's fun to be around. Even if you're a total diva and you produce the best work ever people are still gonna call you a diva behind your back. Don't be horrible to work with. You are more than just an actor too. You're a daughter, a son, you're sibling, you're a lover, you're a student, you code [websites] in your free time. I would not be afraid to embrace that when you meet people in an acting relating context because that’s so cool. It shows that you really value and enjoy your time on planet Earth and that’s just fantastic energy to be around. Also it is such a myth. I think especially before graduating from college, everyone is always going to be stuck in some capacity. Sometimes you'll have a moment or even a whole day where you're just like, "You know what? Everything right now is so fine and so great." For the most part, everyone is always working to improve themselves in some way. Maybe they're booking a lot, but maybe they feel tired all the time and they haven't been hanging out with friends a lot. Or maybe they've been super [inaudible 54:20] and having the time of their lives but they haven’t been booking a lot. No person has it all figured out, everyone is always working on themselves in some way. I didn't know. I hope that people will feel like the playing field is leveled out. I have friends who've been in Kodak Commercials, Netflix TV series, whatever, whatever. But I'm still super proud to be me.
Every time your friends book something, because you like yourself so much, it gives you the freedom to celebrate other people and their accomplishments. I would hope you would want that for yourself too. When you book, your friends aren't bitter and jealous. You want them to celebrate you. It's really important to like yourself as a person so that you can like yourself as an actor and like other actors and like other people. It's so fine to be stuck and sometimes feeling stuck is a really great place that you can just sit back and just process what you want. What makes me feel good, happy right now and what doesn’t? Feeling stuck is a great opportunity to reconfigure. So I wouldn't be afraid of it when it happens because it's always going to end up happening as time goes on. That’s just super normal. It's not a negative thing to be stuck.
Martin: I think that your interview that we just went through - everything that you said - I love it. It's really eye opening to hear this type of perspective. It's process oriented rather than results specific and that's super important. I mean obviously we both agree that you kind of have to have a mixture of both, but most people forget about the process side. To kind of reconnect with that through this interview here and understand if you're not happy, then people won't be happy to be around you and it's going to be way harder for you to move forward in your career. All of that it all kind of works together.
Zennie: I also just want to give a quick caveat. I don't want people to think you have to constantly be bubbly and hyper, that's not what happiness is. I think like if you're just feeling sad or down that's okay too. You can even work even when you're not feeling 100%. I think it's really important though to have some sort of underlying pride yourself even if maybe you're going through something. You can always work on an acting project, even if you're going through something or you're just feeling physically burnt out. You don't have to be hyper and enthusiastic all the time.
Martin: Cause then you're fake and people can kind of sense that. This was amazing. I want to thank you on behalf of myself and the people listen to this interview. Everyone I'm sure is going to get a lot of really, really great insights. So thank you so much. This is amazing.
Zennie: Thank you for asking me, for even thinking of me. It was such a pleasure.
Martin: Today we have Zennie Trieu, and she's here to talk a little bit about her own acting career and some of her accomplishments and some marketing strategies that she uses. So Zennie welcome. Thanks so much for taking some time to chat with us. I'd like to just have you give us a little bit of background on yourself. Like how did you get into acting and what would you say are one or two of your biggest accomplishments that you're most proud of to date?
Zennie: Thanks for having me. I grew up in Northern New Jersey in the suburbs. I could see the Empire State Building from my bedroom window. It's really close to the city. I got accepted to a vocational high school at the end of my freshman year, like 2010. We had to declare a major and I had no idea what I wanted my major to be because I was 15. I just remember seeing a performance ensemble/acting major final, end of the year performance. I was like, "Oh, like I want to do that!" I declared my major at the end of my freshman year with having really no acting experience, it was great. I used the monologue from the Cinderella Story where Hillary Duff is alongside Chad Michael Murray waiting for rain in this drought. It was a great three years, so much fun and really great friendship. Then when it came time to apply for college, obviously I was like, well now there's only one I could call for acting. I got into NYU. I don't know if you know a lot of people who've gone to NYU but their studio system is very specific so you spend the first two years in one studio called your primary studio. Each studio is differentiated by acting technique.
It's really based off of your initial audition to get into the program. Then after that if you want to go on to a different studio for your secondary training or if you want to stay in your studio. My first two years were spent in my [inaudible 02:26] which were literally anyone who's ever been to acting school, is kind of like the people's acting technique, which is what I also happened to be studying during high school. So I had six years of my cert training. Then by 2015 going into my junior year, I transferred to the film and TV studio which, in addition to helping you with camera work, commercial, auditioning, there were a lot of classes about being part of the industry which I found to be helpful. I was taught by casting directors, previous managers, previous agents. I graduated two years ago in 2017. Got really lucky. I say that because I know this is maybe not normal or maybe I don't know it, but I got signed to up my current agent right after I graduated. So I've been with the same agency for on camera commercial for two years now.
It's just been like a really great time. I know everything I say sounds so corny and like a fairy tale, but I had no idea growing up that was going to be an actor. I thought I was going to be like as dancer or a journalist. Which to be honest with you, I'm actually also writing and performing with dance. Like tonight I’m literally performing ballet electric for dance. So it's like all these dreams are coming true. But I feel like acting is really the solid ground I needed for performing arts training and often just to feel like a vulnerable human. In my normal day to day life acting school really takes away all the pretense of social interaction ideally and then it really helps me get to the hardest thing. It makes you empathetic when you read stories, you read paper or when you're doing live performance. So that's where I'm at now. I just turned 24. If I would have been a dancer that would be old sadly. But, I think I'm still pretty young. It still kind of feels like things are just starting. I was just reviewing my CV, my regular resume for regular non-acting jobs. I was like surprised by how much work I had to present and write down in just like the past few years. So it's been really surprising and obviously there were a lot of people who helped me along the way. That was a very specific run down of my life.
Martin: Cool. No, that's good. A lot of people who listen to interviews want to know about the background of the person and what they're doing. But if you had to kind of summarize your one or two biggest accomplishments, what specifically would you say that they are and what factors do you think contributed most to you accomplishing them?
Zennie: I would say one of the accomplishments that I rave about is… I actually just celebrated my four year anniversary with my partner. I met him the first day of acting school, we were friends first. I just want to say this is not really marketing but in your personal life it is very important I think to have a solid foundation of friendship before you enter a romantic relationship with someone. That being said we were friends first and then we got together halfway through NYU. Then a year after graduation I had a friend who went to NYU for film and TV. I think in the film and TV, undergrad programs, you have three major projects and I think they're kind of the big three that you kind of show off at the end of graduation. So for an intermediate the second project is a really personal piece about two friends and there are a lot of feelings involved concerning the Beatles. Ethan, my film and TV friend asked me if I wanted to do it and I was like, "Yes!" Then he was like instead of auditioning random guys for the other part can we ask Evan your boyfriend to do it with you and obviously do a chemistry test to see if it works. Then I offered it to Evan and he was like, "Yeah, let's do it." So it was so much fun to act with your partner... that was a huge surprise. I like feel like that's only something you hear with like Warren [inaudible 07:26]. Not to compare myself, but it was a really great experience. That was actually my first student film where an acting teacher wasn't involved and it was so professional, everyone really took care of each other. There was no gossiping or being on your phone while people were shooting. Craft Services is great. I felt like everyone really cared and they're so young, they were like freshmen and sophomores in college. I felt like that was such a big thing and just to have them be a part of that was really optimistic because I had been out of college for a year and then you got people who are like, "Oh yeah, I was back in school," but they're like jaded now. Or like, "Oh yeah, I used to act, but real life got in the way." So it was nice to be around people who didn't feel that way. People who were still really invested in their dreams and respectful of the process.
I can actually send you that link because it's on Vimeo. I’m super, super proud of the work and also Evan and everyone on the crew, especially Ethan, did a really, really great job. I'm really excited to have people see it because it's really such a beautiful product of fantastic teamwork. Then this is actually something that I think I'm just telling you for accountability, but not related to acting, I actually got into a fiction writing workshop from October to December of last year. I went into it thinking I was going to write a novel, but then I was like, "No, I'm not going to write a novel." By the way, at the end of that workshop my teacher talked about getting headshots and thanks to you Martin I already had headshots that worked really great for acting and for writing. The versatility there is really evident. I just thought about how I didn't want to write a novel, but I still wanted to write. I'm actually in the process of writing a collection of plays that are modern retelling of Greek mythology. So it'll kind of be like Jason and the Medea, but they're graduating from school or that kind of thing. Or presenting work at a restaurant. He comes and sexually harasses her. I’m being very glib about it, but I have so much fun writing. I'm actually friends with someone who is a theater company creator and her whole thing is modern mythology. So who knows, maybe at the end of the year there might be a production coming up, but it's still very nascent.
Nothing is really certain yet, but I'm really proud to be talking about it because I had no idea I was going to get a workshop, let alone have this idea. So I think if there's someone [inaudible 10:30] be really, really open. Even as an actor you don't have to just be an actor, you can open yourself up to other things and you can get away with that when you're an actor because everything you do informs you about human behavior. So writing and reading opens you up, dancing opens you up to utilizing your body and spacial awareness, falling in love, obviously helps with your emotional prep for roles. So yeah, it's really okay and encouraged, I think to do things other than act, I think if you want to be a professional actor.
Martin: I like that. We talked actually a little bit about that with an interview with another actor that I did recently, who does writing and does some of his own film projects outside of acting. One of the questions that I asked him was do you feel like your other projects help you network and move your career forward? So I'd like to also ask that to you. Besides the fact that you're going to become a better actor by writing, which is super important because you're experiencing other things, but do you also feel like you meet new people and it actually can help you in other ways?
Zennie: Oh yeah, definitely. This is so funny because I just had a conversation about LinkedIn. By the way I don’t have social media, which I know can be very hurtful, but just mentally, it's just not for me. But I literally told someone LinkedIn is the opposite of me. When I hear the word networking, I'm like you mean just making friends, like moving your career forward, you mean to enjoy life? I feel like all the things that people thought when they think about their career, also I say this because I spent a year after graduation working in a corporate company. It was like a very, very, very officey job. Full time, fashion company. I will never do it again. I did it for the money. I'm so sorry I sold out, but then I was like "No, I’m very unhappy." So when I think about ways to help move forward, I actually try to not think that way because I feel like we calculate it like there’s an end product or like I will be this threshold in my life or I will have this social network of people I can reach out to. I feel like it's just more about meeting people that you actually like spending time with and if you happen to collaborate with one another that’s great. But the collaboration I think is not the point. I think the point is to have people in your life who support you in whatever you do professionally, socially, personally, whatever. Then when you think about these acting projects are not or submitting yourself for something, whether it be a role or a job, I think it's really more about am I going to enjoy this? If I devote this amount of time, am I going to get something out of it other than just something to add to my resume? Because it kind of feels like the point is not to back up your acting resume but have stories to tell at a cocktail party or a long list of friends that you can reach out to if you’re in need.
It’s really more about for me just added things to your life that you really like and if something cool comes out of it. Like this potential collaboration between me and my friends [inaudible 14:34] was so unexpected then it that popped up, I'll take it. But I never went into my friendship with her or this workshop with that in mind. I feel like being product oriented can really hurt your process and make you always feel like you're always behind in some way. Then when you actually see that threshold if you're very goal oriented then might feel not satisfied because it's kind of built it up in your head. I think like the best part about writing is the writing, not so much if this play is going to be on stage or is if this novel is going to have a book with my name on the cover. It’s just the actual process itself. I know that’s so corny but whenever you go to a party, I just went to a mixer yesterday [inaudible 15:33] and my manager was like, "Hey, try to network with people." I'm like, "Well when you say that do you just mean try to have a good time and have a conversation with people?" Which is great [15:49] let me network with people. But I would consider referring that to be like, "Hey, let's just have a good time. I'm feeling good so let me spread that good energy around me so other people are feeling good." That kind of thing.
Martin: Totally. A lot of people when they think of networking and moving their career forward, they kind of think like you said, it's calculated and they think like, "Networking, no, that's so sleazy or something." One thing that I'm a big fan of is rather than thinking, "Let me network with people," just think, "Let me connect with people, have conversations." Just kind of enjoy the process because when you don't enjoy what you're doing or when you feel like it's not authentically you, then it kind of gets to this point where you wind up getting stuck. So that's a question. Tell us about do you have opinions on how important it is to authentically be yourself versus trying to do everything like that? Both in terms of marketing yourself or moving your career forward. But also perhaps even more importantly in terms of like auditioning and playing characters.
Zennie: I think one thing that very young people, and I don't include myself in that category, so it's great to be respectful, like when an important figure comes you want to be respectful and humble. But I also feel like when some people go to acting school, they are taught that you are going to try to make yourself the most impressive actor as possible to meet professional casting directors, managers and directors. I think "No, like that's not the only thing that's going on." You do have a lot to offer. But I would also say that you have a lot to offer more so than just your previous body of work of what you could potentially do as an actor and future projects. I think it's very important to also characterize yourself in ways that remind yourself that you're human. So maybe you're a really brilliant actor, but at the same time you might also just be like a very, very patient person and that's so important onset. Maybe you know that like if there's ever an emotional scene you're able to just kind of like respect it but also not be like stop caring. Like you can still crack a joke half of the time, be flexible. I think it's really important if you want to use the term marketing, when you market yourself, like what comes with being an actor and having your training and the roles that you want in your mind and your capability. You're also still human.
So I wouldn't downplay you as a person. I would actually upplay that so that you become more well-rounded. It shows that yes, you're there to do a job and to support a project, but you're also going to help everyone have a good time. Like if you're the kind of person who, I don't know, has a lot of trivia facts in their mind that is a fantastic way first off the bat, be really engaging and it'll make you more memorable. I'm not trying to give tips to make people be arbitrarily impressive. But it's really great to have a person walk into the room and she really gets to know a person in 10 seconds or less in a really effortless authentic way. I think that really shows how much people want to work with you, if you're not afraid to really show off who you would be if you were to be on set. So walk into a room, know that if you don’t get the role it's like whatever, because rejection is 90% of the business and I don’t take it personally anymore. But also show off who you would be if you did get the role or if you did get the project. What kind of person would you be like during down moments or what kind of person would you be waiting in line for craft services? Embrace that because it'll really help people figure out if this is a collaboration that they want to happen for this specific project. If it doesn't end up happening, it's not something personal. It's just kind of like, "Oh, maybe this wouldn't necessarily work for this project." Then move on and know that because you were able to show yourself off authentically, there's that much higher of a likelihood that the person will remember you for their next project.
Martin: Yeah, that's an awesome tip. It’s so important. A lot of people think that they need to be someone other than themselves when they're going out. They want either their photo way too retouched or they want to hide angles and everything. If you're authentically you and you're playing characters and being authentically yourself you'll get called in and cast for the best possible roles that are specifically for you. You'll work with the people who are meant to work with you and you'll do your best work, which results in referrals and more work down the line. Rather than being some fake version that's all about promotion. I mean, you have to do certain things for promotion and stuff, but you need to also be authentically you and do what's most comfortable for you. Which actually leads into my next question. You had mentioned earlier that you don't like social media and don't really use it. Some actors believe that even if they don't like it, they have to use it to promote themselves. This whole conversation so far is about being authentically you and doing what you're comfortable with. So what would you say to people who think that they have to use social media? How do you get by without it?
Zennie: This is so funny. I remember during my writing workshop, I'm also going to hyperlink the writing workshop, but no one's paying me to talk about this workshop. I’m just genuinely excited to talk about it. During one class, the class is all about promotion and furthering your career, my teacher said that some people in the writing and publishing initiative really believe that if you don't use Twitter you're basically nonexistent. I said this straight up, I've never had a Twitter account since I was like a freshman in high school. I was just totally different person in high school. But I was like, oh well I don't want to download Twitter. Sadly I was already off Facebook and Instagram. If you're a visual artist, like a sculptor, painter, Instagram is also the equivalent of that. I thought about it and I was like, "Do I want to reach out with social media?" But I thought about why it makes me uncomfortable and everyone has a set of ethics and literally 90% of my friends are on Facebook and Instagram and I still love them very much. So it's not all about everyone has to be like me. But just personally for me I really dislike corporations so I just hate Facebook. With Instagram and WhatsApp I don't like how they're feeding very unhealthy capitalistic tendencies. I also don't like how social media for me feels like a cop out from my authentic self. I remember when I was writing, something I enjoy doing because I'm a nerd. When I was writing essays and I had Facebook in the background, it was so easy for me to check myself out of the creative process. Maybe it's because I have the self-control issue, but maybe because it was so normalized for people to just be scrolling through their phone, like while they're at dinner with a potential client or when they're with their significant other and they're still on their newsfeed. I just feel like it was really distracting.
But also it took away time for me to just be by myself or really be with other people to process my emotions which is so important when you're doing emotional work for characters. Or just figuring out myself, what I wanted my life at that point to look like. I think that if it is really necessary no one is really going to convince you otherwise. So whatever instinct you have, just go with it. Like if you hate social media but you think it's a necessary evil don't shame yourself, don’t hate yourself. Do it because you feel it's like a necessary part of your life. But if you feel like you can relinquish it, there's more than one way to row. I don't know if I want to pull myself up as a pillar of that example or anything. But I think some people literally don’t eat meat and they get their protein from other sources. Spoiler alert, I am one of those people. I gave up meat for lent and then then I gave it up forever. You can do that, you can give up something that you thought was necessary. I used to eat burgers all the time and now I'm just like actually it’s possible to just let go of something that you thought was so important before. I think now how I really have to find protein other ways. Then if that's the case, I can figure out how to connect with other people in a different way. If you don't like social media because you don't like how everything is digital then take yourself out to like parties and functions.
Especially if you're already socially inclined to do that. It's just like do more of that. If you're the kind of person who really likes to advertise with a status update then text all your friends. Your friends are your friends for a reason. I personally love individually texting people with updates of my life and what my projects are as opposed to sending it out to the internet and having someone I've not met for four years to see that. It feels weird to me that someone like that would know what's going on in my life. But for people who do update their status, update, what have you, it works for them. I think there’s more than one way to be successful. By the way, also just don’t compare yourself to other people because success is always, always idiosyncratic. You will really kick yourself in the foot if you start to play that game where you're like, "Oh well this person has more followers, this person has this sponsorship on YouTube." Do you want to be Instagram famous or do you want to be a beauty blogger? If the answer is no, there's no reason why you have to compare yourself, you’re your own person and your standards if yourself are completely your own. So yeah, for my friend who was literally a beauty blogger, getting the sponsorship from Urban Decay might be her threshold of success. Whereas for me, I feel like my threshold of success would be like something completely different, not related to YouTube or beauty products at all and that's so, so fine. It’s just releasing yourself from standard expectations and setting up your own expectations. That success looks like.
Martin: That's excellent, awesome tips. When you think about it, people are successful in all different areas. There's people who are really successful who don't have social media pages. I have social media pages but I don't actually use them very much. My method of how I like to communicate is usually through email and blogging. Other people don't like anything to do with the Internet and just want to network all the time. So if you figure out what you most enjoy doing, then you're being authentically you and you'll also be able to continue following through. Some people who don't like Twitter and try posting for like two months, usually give up after that time period and then they just kind of stop. So you've got to find what you most enjoy doing and you can move your career forward that way.
Zennie: Right. I actually really like that. I think it's important to literally test out what you suspect could be useful. So obviously before I was off social media for good, I tested it out. Like I would try to like not touch it for like a week and then I ended up finding out that that week was really awesome. So I prolonged it and now it's like forever thing. Or I think you should always have out things that you feel like could be meaningful. Maybe you've always been abstaining from social media but you find that Twitter is really, really fun and you're like, "Wait, I don't like social media except Twitter." Then go for it and embrace the fact that you’re a person who's capable of change. Who you are today, is hopefully not going to be the person who you are tomorrow because you're constantly evolving and changing. So if you call me again for another interview in like six months, who knows how I would be different? I mean I think I would still probably be off social media and not be eating meat. But maybe my views on acting have changed. Maybe I don't want to be an actor anymore. Maybe I just want to be a writer full time. It’s okay to embrace for yourself that sometimes what you think will happen won't, but that's not a bad thing or just [inaudible 29:57]. It's okay to be open to the mystery of your career as your life. I think keeping yourself open to change and possibility is the only way you're going to have a career that you are proud of, rather than trying to anticipate your next move, your next goal. It's exhausting and wrinkles will show. So don't do that to yourself
Martin: My next question is, are there certain things that you tend to do on a daily or weekly basis to get paid acting work? Tell us a bit about them and how they've contributed to helping you get those paid jobs and moving your career forward.
Zennie: So my answer is no, I don't do that. I am super disciplined in a lot of other ways. But for me, I feel like I am very committed to acting and therefore to give it the respect it deserves I actually know my moneymaker. I actually do not depend on it for money because I mean, honestly, as we start to depend on something or someone for money your relationships start to get a little f***** up. For me, I feel like it's super important to have each job. When I met with my agent two months ago, he's just like, "But you have a day job right?" I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "Good, keep it." So luckily for me, my day jobs are directly related to the arts. So I'm not seeing it as [inaudible 31:41]. However, I also have a lot of experience in the service industry and for some people it's great because you constantly improvise or interact with other people. For me, I work with arts and education nonprofits. So I'm teaching acting and dance and poetry and it’s really great to be with the company. With that being said it gives me the freedom to just not worry about acting because you can't. Like what I was saying before, you can't anticipate the amount of work that will be available.
The summer is usually slow because people are not shooting as much in industry and the union. But a lot of people could be doing student films because they're freshly graduated and they're really excited. So there's no way to really anticipate what every week is going to look like. Backstage, you could refresh it today and then tomorrow because it’s super, super different. I think as long as you don't make [acting] your main source of income, you're open to the flexibility of, this week is pretty slow for audition. Next week you're auditioning back to back to back and that's super fine. If it is really quiet for a few days or even a few weeks that's fine because you're trapped in the long term longevity of your career. I never ever base my entire career off of just a short period of a few days or a few weeks. So my tips for that would be 1, Checking yourself. So if you’re having a really slow season for acting, the next time you get an audition, who cares? No one's gonna know you had a slow season unless you tell them. It's not a big deal because you're going to be acting for like years or even decades. This low period will be so small and fractional compared to the big picture. 2, accept roles that are very random. The one that I looked for tonight, I happened to meet this guy last summer and I did a show with him and then I didn't hear from him for like 10 months. Randomly he was like, "Oh, we'll have another show and I thought of you," and I was like, "Awesome." That's just another example of being surprised. I literally have not thought of him since then.
Not because I'm a jerk, but because you know, we worked together once and it was a good time and that was kind of it. But now it's kind of like, "Oh, the least expected person to come out and offer something to me just did." 100%, I'm gonna say yes. Other things like keep yourself healthy, make sure you're take care of yourself. It's okay if it happens, but if mentally or physically you're not in a great place, but you are getting a lot more dishes than offers, I would never recommend someone push themselves past their limits just accept that work. People are really understanding. No professional person is going to take it personally. If you really just cannot accept a role, trust that your career is going to be long and just say no. You have the power to not say yes to everything that comes your way and burn yourself out. You can burn yourself out as an actor. So in order to make sure your career is healthier and longer I would say try not to just focus on the very quick pleasure of short term stuff, if that makes sense.
Martin: I think that that is awesome advice. A lot of actors have in their mind and pretty much anybody if they run their own business or they freelance, they have it in their mind that if they have a source of income besides what's coming from their goal, like they're acting career or whatever, that means that they're like failing or something. But that's not necessarily the case because the problem is if you're needy, money is a very real thing and if you're extremely in-need of money, you'll come across as needy and you'll look desperate in your auditions. You'll take on, like you said projects or you’ll work with people who aren't best suited for you. That means that you're not being authentic and true to who you are, which means you're going to do worse work. You're going to be seen as somebody who's kind of desperate and it's gonna keep you in that sort of situation where you're hungry and you're needing more work, and it's kind of like a vicious downward cycle. As soon as you can kind of free yourself from that, you become much less stressed and you actually do better in your auditions and things just start happening. You wind up finding an agent or finding something that could be really helpful. So it's definitely not a failure if you have an outside income. Until that point comes where maybe you're so in demand that everything is back to back and you want to quit that job to have more free time. But there's no rush.
Zennie: Yes, exactly. There is no rush. I just want to add a few things to that. 1, I think for the most part our only job in life is just enjoy a very short amount of time we have on this earth. It’s great that if you like acting, you want to make a career out of it. But if you find yourself accepting acting roles that make you extremely unhappy then don't. You're never defined by one acting job. 2, I would say that, maybe this is really messed up, but to be honest with you when I act or write I literally never think about money. But I'm not saying that because I'm super rich or anything like that. I don't live paycheck to paycheck, but I figured out a way to have a day job where I actually really like my coworkers and like what I do. I love working with kids. It is so humanizing and humbling because kids are just better than us. It's so great. I love my job. I would shout it from the rooftops. That gives me the freedom to just not think about a quantifiable amount of money when I'm auditioning, when I'm submitting myself for something. Then when you do get paid, it's like all the more pleasurable because it's like what I have been alluding to for this whole conversation. Just the unexpected surprises that life throws your way. Also, I say this because I know how privileged this can come off, but especially when you're young.
I would be so okay with not accepting money for every acting or writing or dance job I do because 1, it makes you more disciplined in finding a day job that you'll like. Because everyone, I feel like when they're fresh, they're like, "Oh, I don't need a day job." I'm like, "Dude, working hard actually feels really, really good." Whether you're bartending or your teaching or you’re in carpentry, working hard makes you feel really good. You work hard when you're acting too, but when you ask too much it kind of becomes like, "Oh my God, I've been writing so much, I have nothing to produce anymore." So it's really good to get that balance with the day job and your creative life. But also a lot of my favorite projects I never got paid for. It was a favor like my shoot with Ethan or I didn't get paid a lot of money. But I got paid in non-monetary ways. There's different forms of capital. Economic capital is easy because it's money. Social capital is the friendships that you make, AKA your network if you want to think of it like that. There's cultural capital, where you learn about something that you probably never would have encountered otherwise. Then there's also all the fun parts of being on set, having a character you really, really, like, and having something for your reel. There's more than one way to get paid is what I'm trying to tell you and it doesn't have to be in a dollar amount. But I know that for some people the dollar amount is really, really important. So I would try to work really hard to make a life for yourself that you're proud of where you are healthy, you're eating and able to pay rent and just relinquish yourself from the stress of considering every acting job as a job. It's more about the acting and the job component is secondary. Does that makes sense?
Martin: Yeah, totally. I'd like to ask you just in terms of auditioning, do you have one, two, maybe three top tips that you can give to an actor who struggles to get called back after auditioning?
Zennie: This is going to sound literally like I'm the worst person ever, but I actually really love auditioning. I don't know how it is because I literally have depression and anxiety, but I have no anxiety when it comes to auditioning. I really like myself. I cannot wait to meet other people and show myself off. I just have conversations. I think if you do, it's so normal and I know what I'm doing is totally abnormal. Just know that if you've got an audition you already made it, they called you in for an audition. They were like, "Here’s your time slot, come on in." They want you, they like you, they’re interested in you. You already kind of passed a certain threshold, you got it. Similar to how I don't think about the money, I also don't think about the call back so that I can set myself up for positive surprise only. But it's like the audition is the guide itself. [inaudible 42:22] with a call back and then end up with a job, great. But the audition is the fun part, like meeting someone who has cool ideas to offer, dressing up in an outfit that you look super hot in, or really great for character.
Maybe you don’t get to dress in an outfit like that every day or just showing off you're acting talk and having a great time. The audition is the event, it’s not a precursor to anything. It's not the appetizer entree. I literally don’t get a call back and I’m like, "Let’s do it all over again but in a different way with slightly more confidence [inaudible 43:04]." Then lastly I'd say that I don't really get self-conscious when I'm not auditioning a lot because of that [inaudible 43:20]. I haven’t auditioned for a while or if I'm kind of seeking a mini break from acting to focus on my day job or to focus on my mental health or just focus on my relationship with people, that's not a defeat. That's not like I'm giving up on my acting dream. It's more of like I have to take care of myself as a human being before I can get back into acting. So it's okay to not audition all the time. Then you'll get better, you'll feel more confident about other areas of your life and then you’ll audition all the time. So it’s just the edge and flow of your career to really embrace that. You don't have to be auditioning all the time, all year round to be a proud, confident, successful actor. It really is more of the attitude that you have in your life. God forbid you don't do anything acting related for 10 years and then you get an audition. You could still have that confidence that you had 10 years prior because inherently, you know you're always going to be an actor.
Martin: Your perspectives on things are really great. In your perspective, if I kind of had to summarize it I would say that you are all about the enjoyment of acting and doing it for the love of it to rather than trying to make it into some methodical process that kind of gets you stuck, you just kind of move forward and naturally and enjoy the process, which is amazing.
Zennie: I just want to point out really quickly. Giving a quick chat to my parents. I am a daughter of two parents who didn't get past high school and they actually are both immigrants. So for them, me going to college was expected but going to acting school was not expected. They've been supportive and the only time we were not supportive was when I was getting so stressed in a non-healthy way. I just remember my mom once saying, "Listen, if you don't like acting just do something else. I only want you to do something if you like it." Also it's okay to admit maybe down the line or during a temporary break, maybe you just don’t like acting that much and you want to focus on other things. But I really think that people enslave themselves to things that maybe they decided was right a while ago but is no longer true. But, if you like it then keep doing it and if not take a break for a minute and come back when you like it even more. I agree with you. I really am about the enjoyment of whatever you do in your life.
Martin: My next question, I could kind of guess maybe based on our conversation what your answer might be. A lot of actors have it in their mind that they need to get an agent. You said that you got your agent essentially out of luck partially. But I was just wondering, do you have any advice or what would you say to an actor who's like, "I need to get an agent?" Do you have a strategy for them to get an agent or would you suggest that it'll come naturally? What's your thoughts?
Zennie: I want to first introduce an example of my friend who was literally a refugee from Russia. So she's here on political asylum. She literally books a lot but she has never had a manager or an agent, she just worked her ass off. She’s on Backstage, Casting Networks. She works hard and she knows that even if she never got a manager or agent she would still work hard. Now I'm going to give you a big spoiler alert in the industry: Even when you get an agent or a manager, you still have to work really hard. During my meeting with my agent, there's a secret that maybe I will get fired for saying, but we don't stop working hard once you get a manager or an agent, you still are working at the same pace that you were. So here's the thing, if you don't like working hard, don't be an artist. I still find my own auditions and a lot of the work that I've gotten hasn't been because my agent sent me out. But I love my agent so sometimes the work I get is because of my agent. But it's not like I relinquish the responsibility of finding work to somebody else. I'm still doing my part in vouching for myself. So honestly it doesn't really matter if you have an agent or a manager. I would say no, but maybe I’m spoiled and not self-aware because I've had one for a couple of years. But I don't know. I feel like it really is about your work ethic. Also, should you get a manager or agent, they can tell if you're a weak spot. They probably will want to work with you because they want to vouch for you and send you out and get their commission.
But they also don't want to do all the work that you should be doing. Here's the thing about confidence. When you find yourself submitting yourself, whether or not you have an agent or manager on the sidelines to help you out, you won't love applying or submitting the same way you will love auditioning. But you will love to send out your resume and headshot and be like, "Hey here I am, super excited about this project. I hope you'll consider me for this role." It'll be a pleasure in your life. You'll wake up in the morning looking forward to when you get to go to your laptop to submit yourself. That's working hard but not feeling like working hard is depleting you. Again, based on how much you enjoy being an actor you're going to love the fact that you get to live in the day and age where you can submit yourself so easily on the computer. I think not only do the agents and managers like it even more because sending you out is going to be easy for them. They're gonna know and trust that every time you walk into the door and meet someone you're just a pleasure to be around, even if it's like for five seconds. They're gonna trust that you're professional, that if you commit to a date or a call back or shoot you're not going to fail. You know what I mean? They're just going to trust you because you can trust yourself. But they're only going to do it if they feel like you enjoy the work that comes with being an actor. Because being an actor still a job so you have to work hard.
Martin: That's excellent. As we wrap this up, I have a final sort of two-part question for you. Which is just in general, is there any advice that you would like to give to an actor who sort of feels stuck or feels like their career's kind of been at the same place for a while? Anything that you'd like to say to them, either about what they should be doing or even what they should avoid doing? Do you have anything like that to finish up with?
Zennie: Don’t decide how things are going to go before it's time to. If I had during any point in the last few years been like, "You know what, I just haven't been getting a lot of work. No one has thought of me. I'm kind of done acting," I probably would not have these subsequent offers and projects that I got. No one has ever forced you to make a decision like, "Hey, are you still an actor or are you not?" It’s okay to sometimes just be a person in the world. Sometimes when people ask me, "So what do you do?" I tell them right off of the bat I blah blah blah blah blah. I always say like, "I'm an actor and that's true whether I’m performing tonight or I haven't auditioned in two months. It's always true. It's kind of just the fact of your life, you don't have you open a timeline where you're like, "Oh it's been six months and nothing’s happened, I guess I'm just not an actor anymore." No, that's not true. Maybe you're going to get to a point where you really feel like maybe you're a parent and you're like, "I'll act if something convenient comes up, but I can have a priority like my kids." That's fine. That’s not a defeat, that’s you vouching for yourself as a person. Maybe you're in Grad school, maybe you’re in law school and right now you really want to be a law student and then acting will be on the back burner. That’s so fine too.
There's nothing better than meeting an actor who has confidence in him or herself as a human being because you're right, it comes off as less desperate when a project is on the table. But it also just makes you fun to be around and people want to only work with people where it's fun to be around. Even if you're a total diva and you produce the best work ever people are still gonna call you a diva behind your back. Don't be horrible to work with. You are more than just an actor too. You're a daughter, a son, you're sibling, you're a lover, you're a student, you code [websites] in your free time. I would not be afraid to embrace that when you meet people in an acting relating context because that’s so cool. It shows that you really value and enjoy your time on planet Earth and that’s just fantastic energy to be around. Also it is such a myth. I think especially before graduating from college, everyone is always going to be stuck in some capacity. Sometimes you'll have a moment or even a whole day where you're just like, "You know what? Everything right now is so fine and so great." For the most part, everyone is always working to improve themselves in some way. Maybe they're booking a lot, but maybe they feel tired all the time and they haven't been hanging out with friends a lot. Or maybe they've been super [inaudible 54:20] and having the time of their lives but they haven’t been booking a lot. No person has it all figured out, everyone is always working on themselves in some way. I didn't know. I hope that people will feel like the playing field is leveled out. I have friends who've been in Kodak Commercials, Netflix TV series, whatever, whatever. But I'm still super proud to be me.
Every time your friends book something, because you like yourself so much, it gives you the freedom to celebrate other people and their accomplishments. I would hope you would want that for yourself too. When you book, your friends aren't bitter and jealous. You want them to celebrate you. It's really important to like yourself as a person so that you can like yourself as an actor and like other actors and like other people. It's so fine to be stuck and sometimes feeling stuck is a really great place that you can just sit back and just process what you want. What makes me feel good, happy right now and what doesn’t? Feeling stuck is a great opportunity to reconfigure. So I wouldn't be afraid of it when it happens because it's always going to end up happening as time goes on. That’s just super normal. It's not a negative thing to be stuck.
Martin: I think that your interview that we just went through - everything that you said - I love it. It's really eye opening to hear this type of perspective. It's process oriented rather than results specific and that's super important. I mean obviously we both agree that you kind of have to have a mixture of both, but most people forget about the process side. To kind of reconnect with that through this interview here and understand if you're not happy, then people won't be happy to be around you and it's going to be way harder for you to move forward in your career. All of that it all kind of works together.
Zennie: I also just want to give a quick caveat. I don't want people to think you have to constantly be bubbly and hyper, that's not what happiness is. I think like if you're just feeling sad or down that's okay too. You can even work even when you're not feeling 100%. I think it's really important though to have some sort of underlying pride yourself even if maybe you're going through something. You can always work on an acting project, even if you're going through something or you're just feeling physically burnt out. You don't have to be hyper and enthusiastic all the time.
Martin: Cause then you're fake and people can kind of sense that. This was amazing. I want to thank you on behalf of myself and the people listen to this interview. Everyone I'm sure is going to get a lot of really, really great insights. So thank you so much. This is amazing.
Zennie: Thank you for asking me, for even thinking of me. It was such a pleasure.