Transcript - Eric Michael Gillett Interview
(note - there may be typos in this transcript since it was done fairly quickly)
Eric: My name's Eric Michael Gillett, a working professional since I got out of high school pretty much. I went to school to be a teacher and discovered I didn't want to do it. As it happens, I was being offered acting work at the time so I started pursuing it. In the early days of my career it was the standard stuff that you do when you're a non-union actor, a little theater, a little bit of stock, things like that, touring with singing groups, anything to make a buck and to keep myself in front of people. Then I leapt into something in the middle of my twenties. I went to an audition in Las Vegas for a job I ended up booking and I ended up working in Las Vegas as a production singer for guests. The first time I was there for two years and then I came back as the star of a production show and I did that for two and a half or three years.
During that time I never stopped coming to Los Angeles and training. I worked with [inaudible 00:01:33] Helen Kahn Academy Award winning actress’s father and she was actually in class then. She was like 13 or 14, I think. A lot of big people came out of that class, Johnny Banks, people like that. It was then that I met a woman named Terry Walston. We used to do an exercise in the class where you basically have to talk about yourself and what you had done in your career and what your hopes were. In this one class I mentioned that I was still non-union and that summer I got a call from Terry Walston who offered me my union card to go and do a production of Side by Side in Detroit. So that got me my card and got me started with the ability to go back into auditioning for theater in a real way.
I did Vegas and then I did tours with a couple of big shows and did a lot of Los Angeles theater and also regional. Then in 1986, I got hired by Ringling Brothers’ Circus and I went out as the ringmaster of Ringling Brothers for 12 years. But I never lost the vision that I wanted to be, which was to be an actor in New York. So while I was doing the touring, I would come back and forth to New York and I met people anywhere I could. I started singing cabarets because it was something I could do on the one day a week that I had off. I met a lot of people because of it, including the first agent that I got when I moved here. I moved here, basically I quit the circus because I went, "If I don't do it now, I won't go do it and I really want to do a Broadway show." So I got here, booked my first Broadway show right after I got here and just never looked back. I've done three original cast Broadway shows. I don't even know how many off Broadway shows. I've been a principal singer in New York City ballet and then New York City opera. I know that's weird. A singer in New York City ballet, but it's a job, it happened.
I would say about 10 years ago I became more interested in film - I had always done some film and television but I became more interested in pursuing it. So I changed representation to people who were more focused on that and began pursuing almost exclusively TV and film and that's what I've been doing since. I think the most recent thing I did, I just shot with Russell Crowe. I shot a new ShowTime series called the Loudest Voice. It's going to start airing in June, late June. I play a Paul Manafort in the last episode.
Martin: If you had to narrow it down what would you say were your two biggest accomplishments that you're most proud of and then how did you achieve those?
Eric: I would say getting my first Broadway show because it was the culmination of a lot of advanced planning and thinking and strategizing. I came to New York fairly late in the middle of my career and auditioned for everybody in the city involved in that revival of Kiss Me, Kate that I did. I used to say to people I don't think that I could possibly have been the absolute best baritone that they heard, but I positioned myself so that the production team wanted me. I met Vinnie Liv from Johnson Liv out in California. I went to an audition for something that he was casting that I knew I was wrong for, but I used my brand and I networked. I had a friend who was going to be playing the audition. He said if you show up and send the note, I'll make sure they hear you. I got into singing for Vinnie and he championed me when I was still on the road with the circus, as did Jay Bender. Then when I finally moved here, I targeted Tara Rubin, who at the time was an associate as Johnson Live. I said if I could just get in front of her a few times and show her what I can do, I think that that might tip the scales in my favor. Sure enough, by the end of the classes that I took with her, my agents had turned down an audition from her and they had said it was because they didn't want me to go out of town. They really wanted me to stay because they really wanted me to get a Broadway show my first season.
Tara surprised me by agreeing with them and said we've got two new shows coming in. I think Eric Michael should be seen for both and he could book one. That's exactly what happened. I auditioned for Kate in March. All I did was sing. I never had another call back. I assumed that it had gone on its own merry way. About two months later I got a call saying they want to see you, I think on Tuesday it was and it turned out that was the final. About a week later they cast me. The reason I’m proud of it is that the odds were against me. I was one of the older people in the show, but it was also the only Broadway debut in that company. I literally planned how to get that show from the first time that I talked to my friend Jerry about singing for Vinnie out in Los Angeles to taking these classes with Tara and getting to know her and getting her support as a casting director and later as a colleague. In fact Terry ended up being responsible for one of my other Broadway shows and for booking me on the movie The Producers as well. That was one of the major ones.
The other one if I had to pick something was booking my first recurring role on a series and getting to play a Gregory Chapper in Marvel’s Daredevil Season Two because it was one of those jobs where you didn't have a clue as to what the season was about or how to give them what they wanted because there was a whole nondisclosure agreement and they didn't give you very much with the script. So when I booked it, I did not even know that the role recurred. I am proud to say that I am dead in the Marvel Universe and I actually have a little page out there on the Internet somewhere that tells you all about my character and who I was, how I died. It's funny that that credit has booked me a good amount of work. You'd be surprised how many people love that series and when they see the teamwork from it, they go, "Oh, we want to meet this guy." So that was a major break for me.
Martin: When did you say that one happened?
Eric: I would say four or five years ago now.
Martin: I have just a side question on the Broadway thing. You mentioned that you sort of positioned yourself in such a way that the production team would want you. Can you elaborate on that just a little bit? If someone, if an actor were thinking, "Oh, I'd like to be able to position myself so a production team wants to bring me on, what would be your thought or suggestion for something like that?"
Eric: The way I believe it's worked for me (and of course everybody who's involved in a casting practice has their own thinking, their own thoughts, but by the time I moved here, Vinnie Liv already knew who I was and liked my work and wanted me to get a Johnson Liv show. Think back to the opening night party for Kate. He actually came up to me and he said I wanted you to make your Broadway debut in a Johnson Liv show and you are the Godiva Chocolate of Johnson Liv shows. I was very touched by that. But even so there's a million actors that they see. So the second step that I used was performing in the city whenever I could while I was on the road with the circus.
So I was doing a Gig at the Algonquin in the Oak Room and my singing partner was represented by an agency and I asked her to invite them. They liked what they saw because she and I were singing together. So they came for her. They liked what they saw and they told me that when I moved to the city to call them. So I came to the city already set to meet with an agent already. I freelanced with a fellow named Michael Harden who was a lovely man. But as a freelancer you're not going to get into the rooms that you want to get into because he's servicing a lot of people and he’s got to service his contract people first. Once I met with the agents that I was with at that time that gave me credibility in the Broadway market. So even though I didn't have any Broadway credit, they were able to use the circus angle and they acknowledged that Vinnie and Jay Bender both knew who I was already. It's that question that agent's always ask: Who do you know? That way you don't have to beat on the door to get in the room. I was able to say, well Vinnie Liv knows me and Jay Bender has met me and had liked me and brought me in.
So they targeted those two offices from their end. Then I went to somebody who Backstage used to do a big actor set. While I was there I met, I guess you'd call her an advisor from a company called TVI. We were talking about classes and the thing that she said that I was impressed was she said if you come in and meet with me, I think I would like to suggest to you people you should meet who tend to bring people in. One of the people that you mentioned was Tara. I said, well, it's interesting because I'm targeting Tara because she's Vinnie’s associates. So that was actually the first class I ever took at TVI and that one class that was four weeks long, I have to say honestly, that one class ended up paying for every class I've ever taken in my life because it was responsible for like I say, two Broadway shows and a movie. But it was really about, once they got interested in me, about making sure that Tara knew that I had the goods for the kinds of show that she'd be submitting me for. [inaudible 00:12:42] Golden Age Musical. It has legit scenes for the ensemble and the smaller director roles, but it's really a very specific kind of Broadway belt that they want also.
So I made sure that I had targeted the kind of music that they would want to hear. I made sure that I was as clear about the song that I chose, that it showed up me vocally, but also the energy that I had, my particular personal performer’s energy. When I sang it was for Paul Giuliani and I didn't sing really. It wasn't the high song. I purposely chose something that only took me up to about an F sharp because I felt that for somebody as sharp as Paul Giuliani... If he couldn't tell how high I could sing based off of that, then I wasn't showing him what he wanted to hear anyway. Sure enough, when I was leaving the room, he said do you have a B flat? I laughed and I said I have a B, it’s on my resume. He just laughed at me and he said, well, I just wanted to know if you would own it. But I was very confident about what I was doing and that if it wasn't going to go my way, it wasn't because I wasn't prepared. It's actually funny because when I got the call back, I was given some sides. I was talking to a friend of mine and I said now I've gotta go and read Taming of the Shrew and I'm going to have to go back and take a look at the material, all the material in Kiss Me, Kate again just make sure I know what I'm doing. She laughed at me and said they just want a couple of characters. Just go in and wow them with your razzle dazzle.
I said that might work for you. But if I do that, I won't feel prepared. So I literally did. I went back, I read all of Taming of the Shrew. I watched the Franco Zeffirelli version of it, just to get a sense of the language because I don't do Shakespeare all that often. So I wanted to remind myself of what the cadences were. I kept the same song that I sang the first time and I wore the same clothes that I had worn the first time. I went in and Vinnie Liv came out before I went in and said. "I just want to warn you there's like 50 people in there." Again, you have to understand, I thought it was just a simple first call back. I said, "Why are there so many people here?" He said, "Well, this is the finals. Didn't anybody tell you?" I laughed and said no. So I went in, did my thing. Mr. Blake Worn our director asked me to read. Kim and Yonnie said, can you sing your song again but up a third? I've never forgotten this because when you're doing your Broadway belts, you have to think about the math, like a third up. Is that a covered note or can I belt that? Before I had a chance to think.
This was gratuitous, there's a guy named Larry Sherman who was playing those auditions and he conducted [inaudible 00:16:01]. He was musical director of Grey Gardens and at the Lincoln. Fantastic guy. But Larry was at the piano and he mouthed to me, you can do it and just started the music. He didn't give me any time to think. I just said okay, if he says I can do it, I can do it. I opened my mouth and I belted out whatever the high note was, I guess it was an A. I got finished and Kim and Yonnie looked at everybody else in the room like, "I've seen what I need to see and that was the end of the audition." It was really about making sure that you were showing them exactly the energy that they wanted for that style of show.
Then counter to that, my second show was a show called Sweet Smell of Success. There was a role I was interested in and the casting director was not someone who was a fan of my work at the time. But I knew John Ware from Kiss Me, Kate and I knew Craig Cornelia who was a colleague. So between them I pushed to get an audition and I got in the room and Craig gave me some insight into the character and they really saw the characters as kind of a Danny Devito type and really a slob. So literally before going into the audition, I slept in my clothes for two or three days. I ate in them, I food got on me and I didn't clean it off. I didn't shave the day of the audition. I just was as seedy as you could possibly be. The exact opposite of Kiss Me, Kate.
Once I booked the role, I realized that I didn't see the character the way that they saw it. I saw him as almost skeletal version of John Lisgo’s character, JJ Hunsaker sort of a JJ wannabe. I was able to convince our director what I saw and it might be more interesting to make him just a little more Kiss elegant, but on the seedier side of it. So I lost a lot of weight. I changed the way I looked for it. But it all began with making sure that they could see that I can do that thing that they were looking for, the Danny Devito thing. It's just listening, you're always taking in information and listening to it and trying to figure out what they want exactly.
I used to tell students when you go into a room and they tell you nailed something, they just mean that you gave them everything that they know that they want. I guess the thing I tell people to try to bring into the room, the thing they don't know they want until they see it. Sometimes it's just doing your research. I did a film that I knew the director worked comedy a lot and he did a lot of improv work and I did my audition and they said I nailed it. They said that the first time. I said is there anything else you'd like to see? The director said, well you have another choice? I said, well no I don't have another choice for the scene. But I said that I could improv the scene if you would like.
You could almost see the relief on his face that someone was willing to play. I did like a four or five minute rip on a two or three minutes scene. At the end of the day that's what got me the job. Because it made him feel that he could let me off the leash when we were on set with major stars. So sometimes it's just doing the research in advance and making sure you know that this is the world you're going to be, not just the world of the show, but this is the world and the people that you might not be associating with. They're going to have certain needs and you want to let them know that you're open to that and that you can deliver that.
Martin: So that was all really good stuff and some really good tips in there. I like that. In terms of regular marketing or promoting yourself, are there certain things that you have a habit of doing on a daily or weekly or monthly basis in order to book paid acting work? Tell us a little bit about them and how they've contributed to moving your career forward.
Eric: There were two schools of thought about postcarding people and stuff like that. The first rule of marketing that I follow very closely is make sure you know how the people that you're contacting like to be contacted. There are people who absolutely hate email. There are other people that do not want post cards and letters coming to them, email them. It's the only way. I have a list that I keep updated all the time of any casting person or director or creative that I had worked with, when I saw them last, what the work experience was like. Do I feel comfortable with them enough to call them or is it somebody that I just sort of Facebook?
I would say on a daily basis I do submissions. On a weekly basis I try to reach out to anywhere from three to five people that I haven't seen in at least a year, to touch base or to set up coffee or a drink or something. Sometimes it's just the fellow actor. Sometimes it's the director of a show. Sometimes it's a producer that I've worked with.
I try not to take that casting role as much as I might have when I was younger. I tend to write to casting only when I have something to say. Like, for instance, I'll be doing a mailing an emailing and a regular standard mailing probably in the next, I would say two to three weeks in order to tell people about the Loudest Voice.
Then I'll do another mailing in July because I'm supposed to go off and do a production of cabaret. So I'll let people know I'm going away. Then I'll send production photos and if there are any reviews, a quote or something to let people know I'm back in town. The reason that pays off is that as an example, there's a casting director that I have not seen in a while and I was sort of perusing the breakdowns because one morning when I had just returned from a job and I saw that she was casting some projects. So I thought, well what could it hurt? I guess this was late at night now that I think of it. I sent [a casting director] a note saying, hey I’m back in town. Here's a photo of me playing Andrew White in Sleuth, it was really fun, had a blast. Back in town, pounding the pavement if anything comes up and I'm right for it I hope you think of me. Knowing full well that she had something different in track. It was 7:00 the next morning and I actually got a phone call from her saying, can you be at an audition today if I send you the material now? I went to the audition and I booked it in the room. They gave me the script while I was there. That same casting director, because I was there on her radar, brought me in two weeks later for an off Broadway show that ran for like five or six months. I booked that as well. I hadn't been on her radar in forever.
I tell this to people because that part of the business has not changed in 40 some odd years. My first ever audition for a pilot for a television show was at MTM productions and it was for a TV show called Father Murphy. I had a lousy agent in California. She was a lovely lady but a bad agent. I was doing a little solo cabaret thing and I sent postcards out to all the casting offices about it. Out of no place I get this phone call to bring me in for an audition. I get the slides and I look at him and I go in and I read. At the end of the day she said that was terrific. I'm going to have you back to read for the director and producers and she says to me, if that goes well, then we're going to take you to network as well. I said I just have one question. I said, I'm just curious. I said, how did you happen to find me? She said, oh my God, your postcard came across my desk on the day I was casting. She pointed to her bulletin board and there was my postcard on her bulletin board. Then that afternoon, that fantastic review that you got in variety came out. Now I go to tell you something. I did not get a fantastic review and variety, it was middling at best. But what she saw with my name and boldface print in variety and that literally got me on the MGM lot and into an audition for a top casting director. So it is, people laugh and say like, well that doesn't really happen, but yes it does. People see your face. They need to be jogged periodically. Sometimes it's like throwing dust into the wind, you never know if any of it is going to even blow back your way. But once in a while something lands that you're not expecting.
Martin: That's awesome. That's an amazing story that I think that actors will be really, really interested to hear about. People say so much of it is luck. But you did the promotion stuff consistently that it enabled the luck to actually happen. Most actors don't even do mailings like you do and they don't reach out to people. Part of this program I'm creating is to actually teach actors ways of systematizing it so they don't have to constantly be spending all their time doing it, but so that it actually still gets done.
Eric: Like I say the thing that’s interesting about that particular story is that the same gig that got me jobs in 2007 or '08 is the exact thing that got me for my very first pilot back in the ‘70s and it's just my face going across the desk at the right moment. That's what people underestimate. You don't even have to be writing to them first. Admission people think, well, I'll just submit it. Sometimes just drop a note to somebody and say I'm taking a class with somebody and I expect it to raise shortly. I have taken from her before. I love the teaching. I think she’s great. I'm writing her note in about a week because she's got that big coming up that I'm interested in. But I'm going to let her know I’m coming back to take classes with you. By the way, the week after class my new TV series starts to air and I helped [inaudible 00:26:45] when my episode’s done. By the time they get into the class that will have already processed that. She’ll already have a different, not a different view of me cause she liked my work. But I'll already be in a slightly different category because, "Oh he's working opposite Russell Crowe on a scene in a TV set." Any time you can say you're doing something like that, it's not that every actor is a challenge to work with, every actor is someone you want to collaborate with. But people have to believe you can hold your own against the big boys and then they trust you.
Martin: It sounds very strategic, your way of promoting yourself, because it's kind of like you're thinking three steps ahead rather than just being like, "Oh, I'm going to do a mass mailing right now." It's like, "Okay, well I know that this thing is coming up and this person that I know is involved with it, so how can I line things up so that it makes me more likely to be reached out to when the time is right?"
Eric: Right. Sometimes if a casting person that you’ve met (I’m going to use casing people but it can apply to agents as well or any creative). If a casting person likes your work and hires you before or when you’ve taken a class with them consistently and received their praise even if they don’t bring you in all the time, those are the people that you want to keep cultivating. The ones who don't respond to you. I have a way of prioritizing [my mailings]: if you don't respond to me or you seem like you're looking for things not to like, then you're not at the top of my list of people that I need to court. Not because I feel like I can't win you over but because there's so many people out there who do want to meet you, why am I going to bat my head against a door that wants to stay closed? In time that door will open up of its own accord.
Martin: Yeah, that's genius. I love it.
Eric: There was an actress that I knew and this is something you should tell your people. She would audition, audition, audition, audition, and I would ask her, "How did it go?" She'd be like, "Oh they loved me, it was great." But she never got any call callbacks and she never booked any work. One day she was like anybody else, she was depressed about it and we were talking. I said, "Well, I'm just curious. You always get this great response and they all seem to know you. Why do you think nobody calls you in?" Cause I know she's talented. She said, "I just don't know." I said, "Well, I'm going to just suggest something to you and I'm probably wrong, but what the hell take it and use it or not. I think maybe you’ve become damaged goods. I think they've seen you for a three years. They like you, you're pleasant. But they've never booked you in anywhere and they've started to qualify you as an 'Also Ran.' 'She's nice and we love her, but we're not going to bring her back.'" What I suggested was, I said, "I think you just need to not go to see those people for a while. I think you should go to casting directors who don't know you and see what happens." Well, she went out almost immediately thereafter and she booked the Philadelphia Company of Menopause. She went down to Philadelphia. She was probably there for six to nine months, whatever. Her first audition, when she came back, she went in for a major office that had always been very nice to her at EPAs, but had never called her back.
She walked in and the first thing out of the casting director's mouth was, "Oh my God, I haven't seen you forever. What you been up to?" She said, "Well I've just returned from Philadelphia. I worked there for nine months starting in Menopause blah blah. Oh, that's incredible. I'm so happy for you. Of course that day she got a call back.There's something about people perceiving that you don't need something from them and that you're successful that makes people view you in a different light.
That's where I came up with the idea that if someone different doesn't respond to your work. There's the casting director in town who will remain nameless. But I remember trying to get in for something and my agents tried the company manager talked to them about me, one of the stars of the show talked to them about me. A couple of people were very interested. But the casting director called my agent and said, "Stop pushing him. I don't know him and I don't have to." I said, "Well, I'll never audition for him again. I have no need to do that to myself." The crazy thing was when I had finaled on two Broadway shows that this guy had kept and he still was willfully unwilling to connect with me. Well then why would I want to pursue him? Go pursue the people who are interested.
Martin: Yeah. A lot of people, I feel like just in general a lot of people don't understand how many opportunities there are out there and so it can kind of sometimes feel like, "I don't want to close any of my chances. But in reality there's so many people out there and there's new casting directors and new agents coming in. Every year there's hundreds of new people joining the industry. So there's virtually unlimited opportunities and if something isn't working out with the people that you're currently seeing or working with or doing most of your work for, then you try moving on or try and pursuing other ones."
Eric: Yeah, I just think that at a certain point in time if you're going to spend time marketing put your marketing money where it can do you some good. Meaning put your marketing efforts towards the people who when you meet them, express interest in you. If somebody really compliments my work in a class and then if I look at the video afterwards and they say like, "Yeah that was really good and I see the adjustment. It came out really well. I'll write and thank them. I don't write to casting people after I meet in a class, I just say thanks what a great class. But if I see a profound adjustment a casting director asked me for [in a video audition], I'll write and say, Thanks, that was really an amazing adjustment. I got to see the video and it did make a difference and I'm very pleased. I hope we run into each other." Then I leave them alone for like six months and after about six months I'll take their class again. If the response is the same, then I'll put them on the list of people that I want to pursue.
Another thing that I think people don't do in terms of how they market themselves is they target only one person in an office. I have a client of mine right now she says she's on the Hacker Myerson trail. If she can get into a room where anybody from that office: assistant associate or Hacker Myerson she takes that class so that the entire office knows who she is. I think ultimately that's a very smart strategy for an actor because you can scatter shot yourself with a million different casting people and let's say you meet a casting associate from some office and they like your work, but they're never assigned to the projects that you would be interested in working on. So you've got nothing on the radar for these things. Then let's say you're on the radar with them. A friend told me recently, she said I don't know why we didn't think of you for this. I said, I can tell you why. I said, you're the name on the door and you'll know me, but your assistants open all of the mail.
It's the base of the business. If you stop and think when I moved to New York, the big offices were Hugh Moss, Johnson Liv, J Bender, maybe one or two other big ones. Now the Bender office is no longer what it was, it’s a totally different kind of office, taken over by somebody else. Johnson Liv doesn’t exist, Tara Rubin is a huge office. Chelsea's office is gigantic. Hugh Moss doesn't exist. You're constantly playing a game of who is now the gatekeeper. Today's assistant is tomorrow's associate. Then after that they're next year's casting officer.
Martin: Just before we move to the next question, if you had to just kind of simplify your general strategy down to one or two simple sentences, maybe three sentences or whatever, just kind of simplifying this whole thing down. You essentially target the casting directors that you feel are going to be the ones who are responding best to you essentially. What exactly do you do, once you know that they're a target then you start reaching out to them or whatever? So just kind of clarify that part one more time for us.
Eric: Step 1 is continuing to maintain my contacts with anybody with whom I’ve worked or who's expressed interest in my work or who brought me in. Step 2 is researching to see what associates from offices that you know have moved to new offices and targeting that office because you've already got a built-in "in" with that office. Targeting that office is everything from taking classes with them to making sure that you go to screenings to things that they have cast, that sort of thing. Then Step 3, researching the projects that each office is involved in and if you didn't have access to the breakdowns, that doesn't mean you can't find out on what might be out there. There's all kinds of places to get you the in on what's happening in town. To just say getting on the ground floor with submissions for a project early on. I don't know that you want to say in, like if I'm right for anything in this, I hope you'll consider me. But I do think if you know someone in the office already, you can say, "This is who you guys have working on this project and I think it's fascinating. I've written this book about it or I read the piece at which is based and I'd love to have an opportunity to be seen for it when the time comes. That's it, nothing more than that. But always remembering that you're talking and researching in tandem. It does you no good to target people with a general question.
Martin: That's excellent. So just to research those companies and who's moving where and all that, do you typically use LinkedIn or how do you know who works where and where they're moving to?
Eric: Well, actually I use LinkedIn, I use casting calls. I use all of the normal guides that you can get an Actor's Connection or any of those places. Then I also follow the offices too. Like if I go in the front office, I have their agency and the officer's website. I keep that. I keep the whole file of them.
Martin: You can be on mailing lists probably for some of them as well and they send out newsletters from time to time.
Eric: Yeah. You can also like their page on Facebook. It doesn't hurt you any to like the pages on Facebook, to like the Instagram accounts of the companies because if you’re constantly aware of what's happening in terms of what they're doing. Like my manager is constantly posting about stuff that her clients are doing, comedy shows that they're in, this thing that’s going to have a big screening, whatever. It's not rocket science to meet my manager. Do you know what I mean? She's out there. I used to tell people when I taught at HB studio, I used to say part of this business is just being out and about. I would say your job this week is to meet a casting director. Half the class was new and half the class was old and the new people would always come back next week we don't know what to do. We don't know how to do this. It's impossible. I said, "Did you try going into an audition? You went to an audition that’s meeting a casting director?" "Oh, I didn’t think about it like that." But the other groups are like, "Did you try walking around the theater district?" One of the guys says, "Well what good does that do?" He says, "You know that there's the internet, you can actually get pictures of people and see what they look like. You can walk and spot them on the street." At that time, if you went down, what we did was the Helen Hayes on 45th maybe, whatever street it is. If you walk down that street at 4:00 in the afternoon, any Monday through Friday, you could have a conversation with Mark Simon who at the time was a major casting director, cast All of Life and all that stuff and he did radio city for a long time. But the thing was anybody who knew him knew that at 4:00 in the afternoon he took a cigarette break and he'd be downstairs for 40 minutes just standing on the sidewalk smoking a cigarette.
Martin: That's awesome. I love how strategic, how you think everything through, and that definitely makes a difference.
Eric: Well if you're not out on the streets, if you're interested in filming television, it’s a little more difficult because those offices are spread all over the place. But if you're a theater based actor you can get off the subway at 59th street and walk to 42nd Street and book your year because you can run into John Ware on the street, you could run into Miranda coming from something. You can actually run into people all the time. If you walk into any bar and sit down and have a drink and relax in the afternoon and you'll see, somebody theatrical will be sitting in one of the corners or will walk in and be having a conversation. I walked into the entire production team on Come From Away and I had no problem walking up to them and talking to them because I knew their choreographer from a show I had done and I knew Chris Ashley from another show. I didn't want anything from them. So it was lovely to be able to walk up and meet all of the producers and be able to say, genuinely, "I'm so rooting for you guys. Your show is so amazing. The choreographers Chris and Kelly are amazing and you must be so happy." I did it the other night with one of the producers on Be More Chill. She goes to the bar across the street from where I teach. It's not that I'm trying to become their next best friend, but the next time you run into somebody they subliminally remember you. I have walked into room and had a casting person say this is and have them say, "I know you’re Eric Michael. We were at that party out in Bridgeport." It was so funny. You have a personal conversation and it's somebody that you met casual. The business is not just contacts, it's relationships.
Martin: I just wanted to ask in terms of your goals with your acting career, what would you say is one or two of your main goals in your acting career? What are you currently doing, if anything different than the stuff that we've talked about? Are you doing anything different to reach those goals or to start taking steps towards those goals?
Eric: There are three, one of which has already been sort of taken care of. But you know that my knees were bad for five years. After I had my knees done, I decided I wanted to return to the stage and hopefully in musical. I haven't been able to really be anything more than straight limited scenes for almost four or five years. Now that my knees are good, I decided that I wanted to do a musical. I started going to EPAs in the spring for the first time in many years. Actually the first EPA I went to I booked. So I'll be going away to do my first musical in about five years in July and I'm going to be playing Hare Sholtz in a production of cabaret. The goal has now been met. But now it’s carry through with that to continue to do it. I'm back to taking weight training in dance class and getting my body in the kind of shape that it can be at the age that I am so that I can take the stresses of doing a musical and having to dance or move more than I should in either direction. My second big goal and I'm in the middle of it now, is I made the decision that I want to invest heavily in going into audio books. I actually just met with the guy who's working with me on the project last night in preparation. In two weeks we go in and we will be recording the demos that we need. I've already had a meeting with my agents about it because one of my agents handles audio books, but also I'm really cranked out with making contact with people at Audible and a couple of other places to have the demo and hit the ground running with it.
Then the third goal is to move from, I do a lot of costar roles to move from costars to guest stars and recurrings. My manager thinks bigger. My manager says guest stars and series regulars. But I would right now be happy with more guest stars and more recurring. Doesn't mean I won't do costars, but I am targeting more of that. So when I meet somebody, I tend not to go to how to book a costar class. I tend to go to classes or casting sessions that are about getting the film or are about booking guest star roles because it's a big difference from the guest star and costar roles. Even though people see the word costar and go that can be anything from one line to a few scenes it's all in what you're doing. But on your resume you just read costar, costar, costar, costar. So the next step for me is to move beyond that. I feel well aligned to do it. I trust my manager implicitly. We discuss what we need to discuss. That was a big part of my decision making process in pursuing this, was I went, I've done everything else one can do. I'm going to go get a good manager and I got one. My agents are lovely people. Hopefully they can effect some changes too. But I really trust my manager more than anybody.
Martin: Really fast if you don't mind. Equity Principle Auditions, EPAs, can you just explain to the listeners, just in case some actors don't know exactly what that means.
Eric: Sure. There are two type of equity auditions, Equity Principle Auditions and equity chorus calls. Equity chorus calls signings are for musicals and you sign up and you go in by number. You don’t have time slots, you just get on to the list or you show up the day of the audition. The order in which you signed up, you're given a number. In groups of anywhere from 20 to 30 people, you're called, you stand and everybody walks in and does anywhere from 8 to 16 bars of music. If the music department is interested in you, they may ask for something great in addition. But as a general rule that’s the audition. The nice thing about an equity chorus call is someone from the music department I believe is required to be there. So you’re singing for somebody who can actually do something for you. An equity principal audition technically the person in the room has to be someone with hiring ability or at least referring ability. But that can be a crap shoot of who you're getting seen by.
Basically the way that works is you sign up in advance for a time slot online and if you can't get a time slot then on the day of the call you have to go early in the morning and wait in line and hope to get one of the remaining non-online time slots before you become an alternate. When you go in the room, if it's a straight play, you're usually asked for one 2 minute monologue or two contrasting, 1 minute monologue, with the audition not to exceed 2 minutes in length. If it's for a musical, you're generally asked for a brief selection, that implies 32 bars, but you can fudge that. If it comes in in 90 seconds, you can probably get it done. If you’re auditioning for season, you might be auditioning for a season that has three musical and five straight plays. In which case they will say if you want to be considered for musical and straight plays, sing 16 bars of a song and do one monologue that's under a minute. So that the whole audition is always two minutes or less.
These additions are primarily pre-screens in almost every case. Equity requires them. Equity producers are required to have them. But people do get hired from them. I had been hired from EPAs and I have many colleagues who've been hired from EPAs and from ECCs. Plainly it's better if your agent gets you an appointment so that you’re really settled and you're doing material from the show and not just your general book. Because a lot of times you're aiming at something and you don't quite know what it is that they want. Whereas when you went to an agent's office, you've seen material, you know what the scenes are, you have some idea what the piece is. Again, with all EPAs you should research the project and if it's a new play, you should research the writer, find out the style it is they write. Going as informed as you can. Sometimes if EPA, they will have you read from slide in which case, let’s say your audition is at 2 in the afternoon. My advice is always if you've got the time, go by Equity in the morning or wherever they're holding the audition and take pictures of the sides, which are usually taped to the wall of the ones that you want to read. Then you can study them for a couple of hours before you come back to your audition. But you don’t get the slides until maybe 20 minutes before your audition. That's the basics of a union call. At those calls, they will often see Equity membership candidate that is people who are accruing points towards membership and if time permits nonunion people as well. But at a lot of auditions that I've been given this last year most of the calls that we are not seeing, nonunion or [inaudible 00:50:35] today. So you have to find alternative ways to get into the room.
Martin: I have a question about just auditioning. What would be one or two, something different. You already mentioned earlier about seeing other casting directors, but what would it be one or two additional tips that you could give to an actor who struggles to get called back after auditioning? Either tips for the audition itself or anything else. People who are struggling in auditions basically
Eric: There are a bunch of things to take into consideration. The most important one is the question always is are you reading from their material or are you auditioning from your own material? The mistake most people make when they are auditioning with their own material is they have not chosen something that is showing them off in a way that will get them work. You need to be ruthless with that. I advise to keep a list of auditions of which photograph did I submit for this job? What was I wearing the day I went into this job? I would keep a list of which. Say it’s a monologue or a song, what did I think, what did I mean that day? If you see a monologue that you’ve done for a period of let's say six months and it's not getting any response like none, it might be time to question whether or not that monologue is showing you up as well as you think it is. At that point you go to a coach and you say, take a look at this and tell me, am I just not doing it well or does it not match me? Because when actors have a problem doing it, they often try to aim at what they think the casting people are looking for, instead of aiming at who they are and their ethics. If you are aiming at who you are and ethics you might go in and be wrong for a part of the show, but you might be right for something else in the show or right for something that the casting office is doing in three months. If they don't see you, they just see what you think they wanted to see often they can't find you, they just can't find you in that match.
I would say the number one thing is to be sure that the material you're presenting matches you as clearly as possible. Then from there, if you're going in on set, if you've got a question regarding pronunciation and you've got a question that is a true question, like they didn't provide the script. Can you tell me what has just happened prior to this scene? I have choices I've made, but this information might help me. Those are legitimate questions, but if you're going to ask questions that are going to just take time they're going to think you didn't prep. When somebody asks me if I have any questions as a general rule, I will say, if there's something you'd want to offer, I’m happy to hear it. Otherwise I made the choices. I'd love to show them to you and then if you want to adjust something, great and I just do my thing. I once did an audition for a show that I ended up booking, but I went in, I did my thing. They said, do you have any questions? No. I said given what you've provided me I made choices inaudible 00:54:00]. I finished it and the creative team was all [inaudible 00:54:03] because the directors said so sorry, we're not laughing at you. It just really, we now realized that we should have provided proper information. Everything you did was great. It's just 180 degrees from what this scene is about. I said, okay, so let me know. I said, that was the perfect note. I said I could work with that. I literally took what I had done, I just turned it on its head and went in another direction and I booked the show. Sometimes when people ask questions, they're not really listening to the answers.
Consequently, the director may give you a very important piece of information and you may processes in a way that doesn't indicate you heard what he said and then you just look stupid. You just look like somebody who can't take direction. You want to be careful about asking for help if you really don't think you need it. Now on the other hand, I went in on something for a wonderful, television directors are almost never in the room at your first call. But I went in on this one project and the director was there and the casting director had worked with me before and they asked if I had any questions, and I said, actually, I do have one question. Because I was presenting a piece of art to somebody. I said, "Is it the French or the Flemish pronunciation for this piece of ours?" The director was kind of stunned. He goes, "I'm just fascinated that you know there's a difference." I said, "It's in the script and I didn't know what it was. So I thought maybe I should look it up as it's a Flemish tapestry. So the title is obviously Flemish, but in the piece, should I pronounce it French style or would he be doing it in the Flemish?" He says, "Could I hear both?" I said, "Sure." So we did the scene and I booked the job. Of course when I got to set they had changed the name of the piece of art entirely so that was hilarious. But my point is that was a legitimate question. It engaged the director but also told him I had done my research and that I knew there was a difference. It wasn't a show offy the question because I easily could have done it with the French and he could've said the writer is not going to like that. I might never have known. It's a balancing act with questions. It really is.
Martin: That is fantastic. There's one side question and we might've covered this a little bit earlier when you were talking about how you kind of do your targeting for casting directors and everything. But just in terms of advice on getting an agent do you have any advice for actors who are looking to get an agent?
Eric: The best advice I can give anyone is ask everyone, you know. You do not know who is going to connect to you. I met my first agent in the city through my singing partner. When I chose to leave them, I left them because I had been introduced, I was working at a show. One of the other stars of the show, his wife was an agent and she saw the show and was interested in me and brought me in. So I went with a very strong agency for a number of years. When that did not continue and I moved on basically I sat in my apartment and thought I've got to start over here. It was actually the business at HB. I walked into the class that day, I got the note on Friday we were starting on Monday. I walked in and said I give an assignment every year, every season. They have 10 weeks and you have to set up a series of projects that you are going to accomplish on the next 10 weeks and then we follow the progress forward for 10 weeks. They did their thing and I said okay. I'm gonna include myself this season because I am no longer with my agency which means I am unrepresented. Which means I need new pictures. I need a new website or adjustments to my current one. I need a new agent. I needed a reel, a new reel. I will have all of this done in 10 weeks. That sounded like I was crazy.
But on the day of the 10th class, I came in and they all did different presentations and then they said so how did you do? I turned on my computer, I showed them the new website, I pulled up on a computer that new photos which had just come in and just been retouched. I showed them the reel that we had just completed, which praise the Lord we passed the ammunition and now it's been done many times because of wonderful credits. Then I just PDF'd the email from the agency that had just offered to sign me. I got that agent the way I told you to get an agent. I told everyone what I do. One of my clients who I coach who got his first Broadway show through me said let me take your stuff to my agent, see what he thinks and that's how I met him. My current agent I met the same way. I told several friends it’s time for a change it’s not going the way I wanted to go. A friend that I signed with somebody new they’re very hungry, they're incredibly nice and I think you might be a match for them.
I met with them and it was a match. They’re people that I respect and I love. As with anything, you're always looking at the agency and trying to decide is this where I'm going to stay? Am I committed to these people or is this a place I’m going to be while I figure out if they can do what they need to do? You can say you have an agency til you're blue in the face, but if they can't make a phone call or get you in the door, you might as well not have an agent. That's a key for people is to just say I want to be represented because it does help me get in. But not being represented will not keep you from getting in. You just have to redouble your efforts in terms of you're contacting people and letting people know you're around. I do think word of mouth and personal references is fastest way to get an agent.
Last night at Actor's Connection I was there for something else, but they had an agent night. There were 6 agents there, there were three different rooms of people, agents throughout and I guess they moved from room to room to room. There were three agents there that I had the opportunity to interact with through clients of theirs over the years. If I hadn't already been committed to taking the class, I would have almost done it even though I re-signed just because I would have liked to have seen what other opinions were out there.
But as it happened walking out of the room, one of my old agents was in the panel and we stopped and we talked and now we're going to have lunch in a couple of weeks. I'm not saying that I would go back with her or that she would be interested in having me. I'm just saying that that's another one of those 'don't throw away your contacts.' You don't know where they're going to take you. Or how they're going to take you. Let's say you did my case, I teach voice and I have four students who are with agent X. First place I would go would be to say if any of you recommend me, would any of you be willing to take my stuff in or to say something? I've walked into rooms before with agents and they said, oh, I know your name, you’re on my client’s episode list. Don’t you know that agent called my client and said what do you like? That gets you interviews. Cause it's all people are saying, yeah, you'd like working with him. He's a good one. You can ask if you've worked with a casting director that you feel you have rapport for, I don't mean a casting director that you've met in the class. I'm talking about somebody who's hired you, someone with who you have a relationship. There was a casting director in Todd Bailer's office a long time ago who’s now a very big casting director, but he was one of the first casting directors ever to give me a list of agents and say if nobody responds from your submission, tell me and I'll make calls. A casting director can get you into an agent's office because right off the bat they're saying I hired this person. I'm telling you this is the door you don't have to beat down.
Martin: I just have one really quick clarification question. At the very beginning when I had asked you the question, you said, first off tell everyone you know or ask everyone you know in regards to the agent. But my question was just for clarification on what do you mean by ask everyone you know? What do you actually say to people?
Eric: I think you pretty much have to be very blunt. Say, "Hey I'm between agents right now and if you know anybody taking people on, do you have any references, anybody that you can connect me with?" There's no shame in it. When I say ask everyone you know I literally mean that. I have a friend of mine who was at big attorney in a major firm and his wife is just a socialite. She's spending time with lots of people. A friend of mine happened to be at a party with her and she was saying what do you do? She said well, I’m an actress but I'm between agents right now. She said hey you should meet my friend so and so. She would love to meet you. My friend said that would be wonderful. Can you help me do that? She said don't be silly. I'll do that right now. She's right over there. So she walked her over, introduced her and said this is so and so and she's a friend of my friend Eric Michaels and if he likes her then I know she’s really interesting so you should talk to her. They had a glass of wine together and they chatted for a while together. The girl was really smart. She didn’t overplay it because it was social situation. But she said may I have permission to give you a call this week and continue the conversation? The agent said you know what, let me think about it and I'll call you. Give me your card. So the girl gave her card and trusted it and three days later she got a phone call.
Martin: That's really, really good because those are the types of specifics that you don't really hear. Like people will run either classes or post info and articles online and it's like ask people you know, and you're kind of like, well, what does that mean? Having those very specific things like you just explained that story makes it a lot easier for an actor to understand like, oh, okay, I get it now.
Eric: Yeah. You think I'm only going to people that I know who are actors. If you're going to target only actors then you're limiting yourself. The directors work with agents all the time. Casting people work with agents all the time, every creative in the business knows somebody we know was an agent. In this particular case and this couple they're not connected to the business at all and they happen to be friends with somebody who is. So you just don't know. If you're not willing to ask for it, then the answer from the universe is always going to be no.
Martin: Totally. That's awesome. My final question is just on your general overall advice. If you had to pick one or two things that you've done in your career to promote yourself, out of all the different things that you tried and everything, you kind of narrowed it down to one or two top things that you think have been the most helpful in moving your acting career forward. What would those be?
Eric: First is rebranding and I don't mean that negative 10 degree rebranding. I mean reimagining what it is that I'm selling. The example that I would use would be if I'm bored with oatmeal and I don't want to buy oatmeal anymore, but then I walk in and somebody get oatmeal with cinnamon and raisins in it and I don't have to bother with it, I can just have that I'm more inclined to buy that product. The actor is no different. You passed the [inaudible 01:07:06] of your career, you know you're a juvenile, then you're hopefully elite, then you're character and then you’re [inaudible 01:07:12]. All in along that process you have to look and say, well what are the opportunities that are given for someone at this point in time? In my 50s I would say television became a big thing for me because there were so many parts for senators and judges and doctors. I have a reel that I used called Eric Michael's Corrupt Judges. It's just one liners of judges on every show you can imagine either being a jerk or being nice, but always the judge. The things that I have found the most useful have been taking a good solid look at the materials that I'm using to submit. An example would be I had a photograph that I love that I used for many years. I spoke to the agent that I was with at the time. I said, I think we're not getting what we want. They said, maybe I should get you phots, we love this picture. Everybody loves his picture. Remember the story I told you about girl who was auditioning for people and she never got called in? Same thing. In my head when they said didn’t make sense. In my head was you're submitting this picture over and over again and everybody said, oh, what a cute picture.
You really love your headshot, but it's not getting any results. That means it's just the wrong picture. So for the first time ever I rethought how I wanted to be seen and I had a set of photos done. First time I've ever done it, it was seven pictures. This is before I knew you. I let my hair grow out, my beard grow out and I started from there. I had what I called the burnt out artist photo. I had the cynical detective on a homicide squad photo. I had this sleazy professor photo. I had the hot young business man, eager beaver in the office still moving up the corporate ladder. There were seven of them and I started using these. We started getting auditions almost immediately and the reason was because you could actually look at the picture and say, Oh yes, I see him in this part. Whereas my other picture everybody liked it and it was great, but it was a generic thing. Interestingly flash forward, after using this mixed images for about three years and I reverted into a single shot again because by that time a lot of the casting people I hit been targeting knew me so I didn't have to send a different picture. Rebranding becomes a major part of what you do.
The other thing that I would say is the most important thing if you want to get your career forward is getting content. I can't tell you how many casting people complained that they're looking at someone, they need somebody to audition, they hear, they see someone in a class, whatever, and they go to look them up and they can't find any content online. A singer who doesn't have any music online, an actor who has no scenes, no reals, no nothing. There's too many ways to create and get content now that's not excusable. You have to have it. Content is what’s going to get you work.
Martin: That makes sense.
Eric: The rebranding or really looking at your brand and making sure your materials represents you exactly and secondarily, making sure your content is up-to-date and up to snuff. I would say those are my two top suggestions for getting your career to move again.
Martin: Awesome. Yeah, that's excellent. That answers that question perfectly, which is if you had to give some advice to an actor who is stuck at a plateau in their career, they would want to look at those two primary things as a starting place. Then kind of continue if they've already done those things and they're really good, they look at other stuff. But to finish up, is there anything else that you would like to say to an actor who might be listening to this and is really looking for something that could help them move forward or maybe they're feeling discouraged because they're feeling stuck or whatever. Anything that you would want to say before we wrap this up?
Eric: I was introduced to a very short book that I think was written in 1912 by career coach. By the way, I highly recommend if you’re really stuck - call a career coach or take a class with someone like you've. Not to promote you too much Martin. But what you need sometimes are other points of view. I took what I would call a career coach on for about nine months. Among the things that she required me to do were going back to the basics, goal listing, stuff like that. But the most important thing, she introduced me to you with the book called As A Man Thinketh. You can get that book online. It's like 30 pages long, it’s free. It’s been around forever. The principle behind the book is that our thoughts are seeds and if you plant nothing but thorns, you can't be surprised when you grow thorns.
If you're planting a garden with beautiful things, you shouldn't be surprised when beautiful things grow. So the idea behind the book is to fill your head with very positive thoughts. And beware the negative thoughts. Look out for when you're saying, "I can't do this or this is not going to work or I'm so angry today." Look for what you feel good about you. Look for what you feel good about your career and do three things every day for your career, just for your career. Forget about the things you want to do for you like the mani pedi or going out for cocktails with friends. Just three simple things that could be done in 20 minute. Even if it's like a quick phone call or a text to somebody or if you're thinking about photos, go look at a new photographers website. Just three simple things that you can point to at the end of the day and say, I did nothing else today but I did this. Believe it or not, it does change your point of view. It really does. This book was invaluable to me.
Martin: Awesome. Well, this was fantastic. I want to, on behalf of everybody listening to this and definitely myself, thank you a lot for your time and your generous sharing of all of these really cool stories and things that have happened in your career and different people that you've had the opportunity to meet, all of this stuff. All of this, I think they're gonna find it really, really fascinating and helpful. So I want to really thank you!
Eric: My name's Eric Michael Gillett, a working professional since I got out of high school pretty much. I went to school to be a teacher and discovered I didn't want to do it. As it happens, I was being offered acting work at the time so I started pursuing it. In the early days of my career it was the standard stuff that you do when you're a non-union actor, a little theater, a little bit of stock, things like that, touring with singing groups, anything to make a buck and to keep myself in front of people. Then I leapt into something in the middle of my twenties. I went to an audition in Las Vegas for a job I ended up booking and I ended up working in Las Vegas as a production singer for guests. The first time I was there for two years and then I came back as the star of a production show and I did that for two and a half or three years.
During that time I never stopped coming to Los Angeles and training. I worked with [inaudible 00:01:33] Helen Kahn Academy Award winning actress’s father and she was actually in class then. She was like 13 or 14, I think. A lot of big people came out of that class, Johnny Banks, people like that. It was then that I met a woman named Terry Walston. We used to do an exercise in the class where you basically have to talk about yourself and what you had done in your career and what your hopes were. In this one class I mentioned that I was still non-union and that summer I got a call from Terry Walston who offered me my union card to go and do a production of Side by Side in Detroit. So that got me my card and got me started with the ability to go back into auditioning for theater in a real way.
I did Vegas and then I did tours with a couple of big shows and did a lot of Los Angeles theater and also regional. Then in 1986, I got hired by Ringling Brothers’ Circus and I went out as the ringmaster of Ringling Brothers for 12 years. But I never lost the vision that I wanted to be, which was to be an actor in New York. So while I was doing the touring, I would come back and forth to New York and I met people anywhere I could. I started singing cabarets because it was something I could do on the one day a week that I had off. I met a lot of people because of it, including the first agent that I got when I moved here. I moved here, basically I quit the circus because I went, "If I don't do it now, I won't go do it and I really want to do a Broadway show." So I got here, booked my first Broadway show right after I got here and just never looked back. I've done three original cast Broadway shows. I don't even know how many off Broadway shows. I've been a principal singer in New York City ballet and then New York City opera. I know that's weird. A singer in New York City ballet, but it's a job, it happened.
I would say about 10 years ago I became more interested in film - I had always done some film and television but I became more interested in pursuing it. So I changed representation to people who were more focused on that and began pursuing almost exclusively TV and film and that's what I've been doing since. I think the most recent thing I did, I just shot with Russell Crowe. I shot a new ShowTime series called the Loudest Voice. It's going to start airing in June, late June. I play a Paul Manafort in the last episode.
Martin: If you had to narrow it down what would you say were your two biggest accomplishments that you're most proud of and then how did you achieve those?
Eric: I would say getting my first Broadway show because it was the culmination of a lot of advanced planning and thinking and strategizing. I came to New York fairly late in the middle of my career and auditioned for everybody in the city involved in that revival of Kiss Me, Kate that I did. I used to say to people I don't think that I could possibly have been the absolute best baritone that they heard, but I positioned myself so that the production team wanted me. I met Vinnie Liv from Johnson Liv out in California. I went to an audition for something that he was casting that I knew I was wrong for, but I used my brand and I networked. I had a friend who was going to be playing the audition. He said if you show up and send the note, I'll make sure they hear you. I got into singing for Vinnie and he championed me when I was still on the road with the circus, as did Jay Bender. Then when I finally moved here, I targeted Tara Rubin, who at the time was an associate as Johnson Live. I said if I could just get in front of her a few times and show her what I can do, I think that that might tip the scales in my favor. Sure enough, by the end of the classes that I took with her, my agents had turned down an audition from her and they had said it was because they didn't want me to go out of town. They really wanted me to stay because they really wanted me to get a Broadway show my first season.
Tara surprised me by agreeing with them and said we've got two new shows coming in. I think Eric Michael should be seen for both and he could book one. That's exactly what happened. I auditioned for Kate in March. All I did was sing. I never had another call back. I assumed that it had gone on its own merry way. About two months later I got a call saying they want to see you, I think on Tuesday it was and it turned out that was the final. About a week later they cast me. The reason I’m proud of it is that the odds were against me. I was one of the older people in the show, but it was also the only Broadway debut in that company. I literally planned how to get that show from the first time that I talked to my friend Jerry about singing for Vinnie out in Los Angeles to taking these classes with Tara and getting to know her and getting her support as a casting director and later as a colleague. In fact Terry ended up being responsible for one of my other Broadway shows and for booking me on the movie The Producers as well. That was one of the major ones.
The other one if I had to pick something was booking my first recurring role on a series and getting to play a Gregory Chapper in Marvel’s Daredevil Season Two because it was one of those jobs where you didn't have a clue as to what the season was about or how to give them what they wanted because there was a whole nondisclosure agreement and they didn't give you very much with the script. So when I booked it, I did not even know that the role recurred. I am proud to say that I am dead in the Marvel Universe and I actually have a little page out there on the Internet somewhere that tells you all about my character and who I was, how I died. It's funny that that credit has booked me a good amount of work. You'd be surprised how many people love that series and when they see the teamwork from it, they go, "Oh, we want to meet this guy." So that was a major break for me.
Martin: When did you say that one happened?
Eric: I would say four or five years ago now.
Martin: I have just a side question on the Broadway thing. You mentioned that you sort of positioned yourself in such a way that the production team would want you. Can you elaborate on that just a little bit? If someone, if an actor were thinking, "Oh, I'd like to be able to position myself so a production team wants to bring me on, what would be your thought or suggestion for something like that?"
Eric: The way I believe it's worked for me (and of course everybody who's involved in a casting practice has their own thinking, their own thoughts, but by the time I moved here, Vinnie Liv already knew who I was and liked my work and wanted me to get a Johnson Liv show. Think back to the opening night party for Kate. He actually came up to me and he said I wanted you to make your Broadway debut in a Johnson Liv show and you are the Godiva Chocolate of Johnson Liv shows. I was very touched by that. But even so there's a million actors that they see. So the second step that I used was performing in the city whenever I could while I was on the road with the circus.
So I was doing a Gig at the Algonquin in the Oak Room and my singing partner was represented by an agency and I asked her to invite them. They liked what they saw because she and I were singing together. So they came for her. They liked what they saw and they told me that when I moved to the city to call them. So I came to the city already set to meet with an agent already. I freelanced with a fellow named Michael Harden who was a lovely man. But as a freelancer you're not going to get into the rooms that you want to get into because he's servicing a lot of people and he’s got to service his contract people first. Once I met with the agents that I was with at that time that gave me credibility in the Broadway market. So even though I didn't have any Broadway credit, they were able to use the circus angle and they acknowledged that Vinnie and Jay Bender both knew who I was already. It's that question that agent's always ask: Who do you know? That way you don't have to beat on the door to get in the room. I was able to say, well Vinnie Liv knows me and Jay Bender has met me and had liked me and brought me in.
So they targeted those two offices from their end. Then I went to somebody who Backstage used to do a big actor set. While I was there I met, I guess you'd call her an advisor from a company called TVI. We were talking about classes and the thing that she said that I was impressed was she said if you come in and meet with me, I think I would like to suggest to you people you should meet who tend to bring people in. One of the people that you mentioned was Tara. I said, well, it's interesting because I'm targeting Tara because she's Vinnie’s associates. So that was actually the first class I ever took at TVI and that one class that was four weeks long, I have to say honestly, that one class ended up paying for every class I've ever taken in my life because it was responsible for like I say, two Broadway shows and a movie. But it was really about, once they got interested in me, about making sure that Tara knew that I had the goods for the kinds of show that she'd be submitting me for. [inaudible 00:12:42] Golden Age Musical. It has legit scenes for the ensemble and the smaller director roles, but it's really a very specific kind of Broadway belt that they want also.
So I made sure that I had targeted the kind of music that they would want to hear. I made sure that I was as clear about the song that I chose, that it showed up me vocally, but also the energy that I had, my particular personal performer’s energy. When I sang it was for Paul Giuliani and I didn't sing really. It wasn't the high song. I purposely chose something that only took me up to about an F sharp because I felt that for somebody as sharp as Paul Giuliani... If he couldn't tell how high I could sing based off of that, then I wasn't showing him what he wanted to hear anyway. Sure enough, when I was leaving the room, he said do you have a B flat? I laughed and I said I have a B, it’s on my resume. He just laughed at me and he said, well, I just wanted to know if you would own it. But I was very confident about what I was doing and that if it wasn't going to go my way, it wasn't because I wasn't prepared. It's actually funny because when I got the call back, I was given some sides. I was talking to a friend of mine and I said now I've gotta go and read Taming of the Shrew and I'm going to have to go back and take a look at the material, all the material in Kiss Me, Kate again just make sure I know what I'm doing. She laughed at me and said they just want a couple of characters. Just go in and wow them with your razzle dazzle.
I said that might work for you. But if I do that, I won't feel prepared. So I literally did. I went back, I read all of Taming of the Shrew. I watched the Franco Zeffirelli version of it, just to get a sense of the language because I don't do Shakespeare all that often. So I wanted to remind myself of what the cadences were. I kept the same song that I sang the first time and I wore the same clothes that I had worn the first time. I went in and Vinnie Liv came out before I went in and said. "I just want to warn you there's like 50 people in there." Again, you have to understand, I thought it was just a simple first call back. I said, "Why are there so many people here?" He said, "Well, this is the finals. Didn't anybody tell you?" I laughed and said no. So I went in, did my thing. Mr. Blake Worn our director asked me to read. Kim and Yonnie said, can you sing your song again but up a third? I've never forgotten this because when you're doing your Broadway belts, you have to think about the math, like a third up. Is that a covered note or can I belt that? Before I had a chance to think.
This was gratuitous, there's a guy named Larry Sherman who was playing those auditions and he conducted [inaudible 00:16:01]. He was musical director of Grey Gardens and at the Lincoln. Fantastic guy. But Larry was at the piano and he mouthed to me, you can do it and just started the music. He didn't give me any time to think. I just said okay, if he says I can do it, I can do it. I opened my mouth and I belted out whatever the high note was, I guess it was an A. I got finished and Kim and Yonnie looked at everybody else in the room like, "I've seen what I need to see and that was the end of the audition." It was really about making sure that you were showing them exactly the energy that they wanted for that style of show.
Then counter to that, my second show was a show called Sweet Smell of Success. There was a role I was interested in and the casting director was not someone who was a fan of my work at the time. But I knew John Ware from Kiss Me, Kate and I knew Craig Cornelia who was a colleague. So between them I pushed to get an audition and I got in the room and Craig gave me some insight into the character and they really saw the characters as kind of a Danny Devito type and really a slob. So literally before going into the audition, I slept in my clothes for two or three days. I ate in them, I food got on me and I didn't clean it off. I didn't shave the day of the audition. I just was as seedy as you could possibly be. The exact opposite of Kiss Me, Kate.
Once I booked the role, I realized that I didn't see the character the way that they saw it. I saw him as almost skeletal version of John Lisgo’s character, JJ Hunsaker sort of a JJ wannabe. I was able to convince our director what I saw and it might be more interesting to make him just a little more Kiss elegant, but on the seedier side of it. So I lost a lot of weight. I changed the way I looked for it. But it all began with making sure that they could see that I can do that thing that they were looking for, the Danny Devito thing. It's just listening, you're always taking in information and listening to it and trying to figure out what they want exactly.
I used to tell students when you go into a room and they tell you nailed something, they just mean that you gave them everything that they know that they want. I guess the thing I tell people to try to bring into the room, the thing they don't know they want until they see it. Sometimes it's just doing your research. I did a film that I knew the director worked comedy a lot and he did a lot of improv work and I did my audition and they said I nailed it. They said that the first time. I said is there anything else you'd like to see? The director said, well you have another choice? I said, well no I don't have another choice for the scene. But I said that I could improv the scene if you would like.
You could almost see the relief on his face that someone was willing to play. I did like a four or five minute rip on a two or three minutes scene. At the end of the day that's what got me the job. Because it made him feel that he could let me off the leash when we were on set with major stars. So sometimes it's just doing the research in advance and making sure you know that this is the world you're going to be, not just the world of the show, but this is the world and the people that you might not be associating with. They're going to have certain needs and you want to let them know that you're open to that and that you can deliver that.
Martin: So that was all really good stuff and some really good tips in there. I like that. In terms of regular marketing or promoting yourself, are there certain things that you have a habit of doing on a daily or weekly or monthly basis in order to book paid acting work? Tell us a little bit about them and how they've contributed to moving your career forward.
Eric: There were two schools of thought about postcarding people and stuff like that. The first rule of marketing that I follow very closely is make sure you know how the people that you're contacting like to be contacted. There are people who absolutely hate email. There are other people that do not want post cards and letters coming to them, email them. It's the only way. I have a list that I keep updated all the time of any casting person or director or creative that I had worked with, when I saw them last, what the work experience was like. Do I feel comfortable with them enough to call them or is it somebody that I just sort of Facebook?
I would say on a daily basis I do submissions. On a weekly basis I try to reach out to anywhere from three to five people that I haven't seen in at least a year, to touch base or to set up coffee or a drink or something. Sometimes it's just the fellow actor. Sometimes it's the director of a show. Sometimes it's a producer that I've worked with.
I try not to take that casting role as much as I might have when I was younger. I tend to write to casting only when I have something to say. Like, for instance, I'll be doing a mailing an emailing and a regular standard mailing probably in the next, I would say two to three weeks in order to tell people about the Loudest Voice.
Then I'll do another mailing in July because I'm supposed to go off and do a production of cabaret. So I'll let people know I'm going away. Then I'll send production photos and if there are any reviews, a quote or something to let people know I'm back in town. The reason that pays off is that as an example, there's a casting director that I have not seen in a while and I was sort of perusing the breakdowns because one morning when I had just returned from a job and I saw that she was casting some projects. So I thought, well what could it hurt? I guess this was late at night now that I think of it. I sent [a casting director] a note saying, hey I’m back in town. Here's a photo of me playing Andrew White in Sleuth, it was really fun, had a blast. Back in town, pounding the pavement if anything comes up and I'm right for it I hope you think of me. Knowing full well that she had something different in track. It was 7:00 the next morning and I actually got a phone call from her saying, can you be at an audition today if I send you the material now? I went to the audition and I booked it in the room. They gave me the script while I was there. That same casting director, because I was there on her radar, brought me in two weeks later for an off Broadway show that ran for like five or six months. I booked that as well. I hadn't been on her radar in forever.
I tell this to people because that part of the business has not changed in 40 some odd years. My first ever audition for a pilot for a television show was at MTM productions and it was for a TV show called Father Murphy. I had a lousy agent in California. She was a lovely lady but a bad agent. I was doing a little solo cabaret thing and I sent postcards out to all the casting offices about it. Out of no place I get this phone call to bring me in for an audition. I get the slides and I look at him and I go in and I read. At the end of the day she said that was terrific. I'm going to have you back to read for the director and producers and she says to me, if that goes well, then we're going to take you to network as well. I said I just have one question. I said, I'm just curious. I said, how did you happen to find me? She said, oh my God, your postcard came across my desk on the day I was casting. She pointed to her bulletin board and there was my postcard on her bulletin board. Then that afternoon, that fantastic review that you got in variety came out. Now I go to tell you something. I did not get a fantastic review and variety, it was middling at best. But what she saw with my name and boldface print in variety and that literally got me on the MGM lot and into an audition for a top casting director. So it is, people laugh and say like, well that doesn't really happen, but yes it does. People see your face. They need to be jogged periodically. Sometimes it's like throwing dust into the wind, you never know if any of it is going to even blow back your way. But once in a while something lands that you're not expecting.
Martin: That's awesome. That's an amazing story that I think that actors will be really, really interested to hear about. People say so much of it is luck. But you did the promotion stuff consistently that it enabled the luck to actually happen. Most actors don't even do mailings like you do and they don't reach out to people. Part of this program I'm creating is to actually teach actors ways of systematizing it so they don't have to constantly be spending all their time doing it, but so that it actually still gets done.
Eric: Like I say the thing that’s interesting about that particular story is that the same gig that got me jobs in 2007 or '08 is the exact thing that got me for my very first pilot back in the ‘70s and it's just my face going across the desk at the right moment. That's what people underestimate. You don't even have to be writing to them first. Admission people think, well, I'll just submit it. Sometimes just drop a note to somebody and say I'm taking a class with somebody and I expect it to raise shortly. I have taken from her before. I love the teaching. I think she’s great. I'm writing her note in about a week because she's got that big coming up that I'm interested in. But I'm going to let her know I’m coming back to take classes with you. By the way, the week after class my new TV series starts to air and I helped [inaudible 00:26:45] when my episode’s done. By the time they get into the class that will have already processed that. She’ll already have a different, not a different view of me cause she liked my work. But I'll already be in a slightly different category because, "Oh he's working opposite Russell Crowe on a scene in a TV set." Any time you can say you're doing something like that, it's not that every actor is a challenge to work with, every actor is someone you want to collaborate with. But people have to believe you can hold your own against the big boys and then they trust you.
Martin: It sounds very strategic, your way of promoting yourself, because it's kind of like you're thinking three steps ahead rather than just being like, "Oh, I'm going to do a mass mailing right now." It's like, "Okay, well I know that this thing is coming up and this person that I know is involved with it, so how can I line things up so that it makes me more likely to be reached out to when the time is right?"
Eric: Right. Sometimes if a casting person that you’ve met (I’m going to use casing people but it can apply to agents as well or any creative). If a casting person likes your work and hires you before or when you’ve taken a class with them consistently and received their praise even if they don’t bring you in all the time, those are the people that you want to keep cultivating. The ones who don't respond to you. I have a way of prioritizing [my mailings]: if you don't respond to me or you seem like you're looking for things not to like, then you're not at the top of my list of people that I need to court. Not because I feel like I can't win you over but because there's so many people out there who do want to meet you, why am I going to bat my head against a door that wants to stay closed? In time that door will open up of its own accord.
Martin: Yeah, that's genius. I love it.
Eric: There was an actress that I knew and this is something you should tell your people. She would audition, audition, audition, audition, and I would ask her, "How did it go?" She'd be like, "Oh they loved me, it was great." But she never got any call callbacks and she never booked any work. One day she was like anybody else, she was depressed about it and we were talking. I said, "Well, I'm just curious. You always get this great response and they all seem to know you. Why do you think nobody calls you in?" Cause I know she's talented. She said, "I just don't know." I said, "Well, I'm going to just suggest something to you and I'm probably wrong, but what the hell take it and use it or not. I think maybe you’ve become damaged goods. I think they've seen you for a three years. They like you, you're pleasant. But they've never booked you in anywhere and they've started to qualify you as an 'Also Ran.' 'She's nice and we love her, but we're not going to bring her back.'" What I suggested was, I said, "I think you just need to not go to see those people for a while. I think you should go to casting directors who don't know you and see what happens." Well, she went out almost immediately thereafter and she booked the Philadelphia Company of Menopause. She went down to Philadelphia. She was probably there for six to nine months, whatever. Her first audition, when she came back, she went in for a major office that had always been very nice to her at EPAs, but had never called her back.
She walked in and the first thing out of the casting director's mouth was, "Oh my God, I haven't seen you forever. What you been up to?" She said, "Well I've just returned from Philadelphia. I worked there for nine months starting in Menopause blah blah. Oh, that's incredible. I'm so happy for you. Of course that day she got a call back.There's something about people perceiving that you don't need something from them and that you're successful that makes people view you in a different light.
That's where I came up with the idea that if someone different doesn't respond to your work. There's the casting director in town who will remain nameless. But I remember trying to get in for something and my agents tried the company manager talked to them about me, one of the stars of the show talked to them about me. A couple of people were very interested. But the casting director called my agent and said, "Stop pushing him. I don't know him and I don't have to." I said, "Well, I'll never audition for him again. I have no need to do that to myself." The crazy thing was when I had finaled on two Broadway shows that this guy had kept and he still was willfully unwilling to connect with me. Well then why would I want to pursue him? Go pursue the people who are interested.
Martin: Yeah. A lot of people, I feel like just in general a lot of people don't understand how many opportunities there are out there and so it can kind of sometimes feel like, "I don't want to close any of my chances. But in reality there's so many people out there and there's new casting directors and new agents coming in. Every year there's hundreds of new people joining the industry. So there's virtually unlimited opportunities and if something isn't working out with the people that you're currently seeing or working with or doing most of your work for, then you try moving on or try and pursuing other ones."
Eric: Yeah, I just think that at a certain point in time if you're going to spend time marketing put your marketing money where it can do you some good. Meaning put your marketing efforts towards the people who when you meet them, express interest in you. If somebody really compliments my work in a class and then if I look at the video afterwards and they say like, "Yeah that was really good and I see the adjustment. It came out really well. I'll write and thank them. I don't write to casting people after I meet in a class, I just say thanks what a great class. But if I see a profound adjustment a casting director asked me for [in a video audition], I'll write and say, Thanks, that was really an amazing adjustment. I got to see the video and it did make a difference and I'm very pleased. I hope we run into each other." Then I leave them alone for like six months and after about six months I'll take their class again. If the response is the same, then I'll put them on the list of people that I want to pursue.
Another thing that I think people don't do in terms of how they market themselves is they target only one person in an office. I have a client of mine right now she says she's on the Hacker Myerson trail. If she can get into a room where anybody from that office: assistant associate or Hacker Myerson she takes that class so that the entire office knows who she is. I think ultimately that's a very smart strategy for an actor because you can scatter shot yourself with a million different casting people and let's say you meet a casting associate from some office and they like your work, but they're never assigned to the projects that you would be interested in working on. So you've got nothing on the radar for these things. Then let's say you're on the radar with them. A friend told me recently, she said I don't know why we didn't think of you for this. I said, I can tell you why. I said, you're the name on the door and you'll know me, but your assistants open all of the mail.
It's the base of the business. If you stop and think when I moved to New York, the big offices were Hugh Moss, Johnson Liv, J Bender, maybe one or two other big ones. Now the Bender office is no longer what it was, it’s a totally different kind of office, taken over by somebody else. Johnson Liv doesn’t exist, Tara Rubin is a huge office. Chelsea's office is gigantic. Hugh Moss doesn't exist. You're constantly playing a game of who is now the gatekeeper. Today's assistant is tomorrow's associate. Then after that they're next year's casting officer.
Martin: Just before we move to the next question, if you had to just kind of simplify your general strategy down to one or two simple sentences, maybe three sentences or whatever, just kind of simplifying this whole thing down. You essentially target the casting directors that you feel are going to be the ones who are responding best to you essentially. What exactly do you do, once you know that they're a target then you start reaching out to them or whatever? So just kind of clarify that part one more time for us.
Eric: Step 1 is continuing to maintain my contacts with anybody with whom I’ve worked or who's expressed interest in my work or who brought me in. Step 2 is researching to see what associates from offices that you know have moved to new offices and targeting that office because you've already got a built-in "in" with that office. Targeting that office is everything from taking classes with them to making sure that you go to screenings to things that they have cast, that sort of thing. Then Step 3, researching the projects that each office is involved in and if you didn't have access to the breakdowns, that doesn't mean you can't find out on what might be out there. There's all kinds of places to get you the in on what's happening in town. To just say getting on the ground floor with submissions for a project early on. I don't know that you want to say in, like if I'm right for anything in this, I hope you'll consider me. But I do think if you know someone in the office already, you can say, "This is who you guys have working on this project and I think it's fascinating. I've written this book about it or I read the piece at which is based and I'd love to have an opportunity to be seen for it when the time comes. That's it, nothing more than that. But always remembering that you're talking and researching in tandem. It does you no good to target people with a general question.
Martin: That's excellent. So just to research those companies and who's moving where and all that, do you typically use LinkedIn or how do you know who works where and where they're moving to?
Eric: Well, actually I use LinkedIn, I use casting calls. I use all of the normal guides that you can get an Actor's Connection or any of those places. Then I also follow the offices too. Like if I go in the front office, I have their agency and the officer's website. I keep that. I keep the whole file of them.
Martin: You can be on mailing lists probably for some of them as well and they send out newsletters from time to time.
Eric: Yeah. You can also like their page on Facebook. It doesn't hurt you any to like the pages on Facebook, to like the Instagram accounts of the companies because if you’re constantly aware of what's happening in terms of what they're doing. Like my manager is constantly posting about stuff that her clients are doing, comedy shows that they're in, this thing that’s going to have a big screening, whatever. It's not rocket science to meet my manager. Do you know what I mean? She's out there. I used to tell people when I taught at HB studio, I used to say part of this business is just being out and about. I would say your job this week is to meet a casting director. Half the class was new and half the class was old and the new people would always come back next week we don't know what to do. We don't know how to do this. It's impossible. I said, "Did you try going into an audition? You went to an audition that’s meeting a casting director?" "Oh, I didn’t think about it like that." But the other groups are like, "Did you try walking around the theater district?" One of the guys says, "Well what good does that do?" He says, "You know that there's the internet, you can actually get pictures of people and see what they look like. You can walk and spot them on the street." At that time, if you went down, what we did was the Helen Hayes on 45th maybe, whatever street it is. If you walk down that street at 4:00 in the afternoon, any Monday through Friday, you could have a conversation with Mark Simon who at the time was a major casting director, cast All of Life and all that stuff and he did radio city for a long time. But the thing was anybody who knew him knew that at 4:00 in the afternoon he took a cigarette break and he'd be downstairs for 40 minutes just standing on the sidewalk smoking a cigarette.
Martin: That's awesome. I love how strategic, how you think everything through, and that definitely makes a difference.
Eric: Well if you're not out on the streets, if you're interested in filming television, it’s a little more difficult because those offices are spread all over the place. But if you're a theater based actor you can get off the subway at 59th street and walk to 42nd Street and book your year because you can run into John Ware on the street, you could run into Miranda coming from something. You can actually run into people all the time. If you walk into any bar and sit down and have a drink and relax in the afternoon and you'll see, somebody theatrical will be sitting in one of the corners or will walk in and be having a conversation. I walked into the entire production team on Come From Away and I had no problem walking up to them and talking to them because I knew their choreographer from a show I had done and I knew Chris Ashley from another show. I didn't want anything from them. So it was lovely to be able to walk up and meet all of the producers and be able to say, genuinely, "I'm so rooting for you guys. Your show is so amazing. The choreographers Chris and Kelly are amazing and you must be so happy." I did it the other night with one of the producers on Be More Chill. She goes to the bar across the street from where I teach. It's not that I'm trying to become their next best friend, but the next time you run into somebody they subliminally remember you. I have walked into room and had a casting person say this is and have them say, "I know you’re Eric Michael. We were at that party out in Bridgeport." It was so funny. You have a personal conversation and it's somebody that you met casual. The business is not just contacts, it's relationships.
Martin: I just wanted to ask in terms of your goals with your acting career, what would you say is one or two of your main goals in your acting career? What are you currently doing, if anything different than the stuff that we've talked about? Are you doing anything different to reach those goals or to start taking steps towards those goals?
Eric: There are three, one of which has already been sort of taken care of. But you know that my knees were bad for five years. After I had my knees done, I decided I wanted to return to the stage and hopefully in musical. I haven't been able to really be anything more than straight limited scenes for almost four or five years. Now that my knees are good, I decided that I wanted to do a musical. I started going to EPAs in the spring for the first time in many years. Actually the first EPA I went to I booked. So I'll be going away to do my first musical in about five years in July and I'm going to be playing Hare Sholtz in a production of cabaret. The goal has now been met. But now it’s carry through with that to continue to do it. I'm back to taking weight training in dance class and getting my body in the kind of shape that it can be at the age that I am so that I can take the stresses of doing a musical and having to dance or move more than I should in either direction. My second big goal and I'm in the middle of it now, is I made the decision that I want to invest heavily in going into audio books. I actually just met with the guy who's working with me on the project last night in preparation. In two weeks we go in and we will be recording the demos that we need. I've already had a meeting with my agents about it because one of my agents handles audio books, but also I'm really cranked out with making contact with people at Audible and a couple of other places to have the demo and hit the ground running with it.
Then the third goal is to move from, I do a lot of costar roles to move from costars to guest stars and recurrings. My manager thinks bigger. My manager says guest stars and series regulars. But I would right now be happy with more guest stars and more recurring. Doesn't mean I won't do costars, but I am targeting more of that. So when I meet somebody, I tend not to go to how to book a costar class. I tend to go to classes or casting sessions that are about getting the film or are about booking guest star roles because it's a big difference from the guest star and costar roles. Even though people see the word costar and go that can be anything from one line to a few scenes it's all in what you're doing. But on your resume you just read costar, costar, costar, costar. So the next step for me is to move beyond that. I feel well aligned to do it. I trust my manager implicitly. We discuss what we need to discuss. That was a big part of my decision making process in pursuing this, was I went, I've done everything else one can do. I'm going to go get a good manager and I got one. My agents are lovely people. Hopefully they can effect some changes too. But I really trust my manager more than anybody.
Martin: Really fast if you don't mind. Equity Principle Auditions, EPAs, can you just explain to the listeners, just in case some actors don't know exactly what that means.
Eric: Sure. There are two type of equity auditions, Equity Principle Auditions and equity chorus calls. Equity chorus calls signings are for musicals and you sign up and you go in by number. You don’t have time slots, you just get on to the list or you show up the day of the audition. The order in which you signed up, you're given a number. In groups of anywhere from 20 to 30 people, you're called, you stand and everybody walks in and does anywhere from 8 to 16 bars of music. If the music department is interested in you, they may ask for something great in addition. But as a general rule that’s the audition. The nice thing about an equity chorus call is someone from the music department I believe is required to be there. So you’re singing for somebody who can actually do something for you. An equity principal audition technically the person in the room has to be someone with hiring ability or at least referring ability. But that can be a crap shoot of who you're getting seen by.
Basically the way that works is you sign up in advance for a time slot online and if you can't get a time slot then on the day of the call you have to go early in the morning and wait in line and hope to get one of the remaining non-online time slots before you become an alternate. When you go in the room, if it's a straight play, you're usually asked for one 2 minute monologue or two contrasting, 1 minute monologue, with the audition not to exceed 2 minutes in length. If it's for a musical, you're generally asked for a brief selection, that implies 32 bars, but you can fudge that. If it comes in in 90 seconds, you can probably get it done. If you’re auditioning for season, you might be auditioning for a season that has three musical and five straight plays. In which case they will say if you want to be considered for musical and straight plays, sing 16 bars of a song and do one monologue that's under a minute. So that the whole audition is always two minutes or less.
These additions are primarily pre-screens in almost every case. Equity requires them. Equity producers are required to have them. But people do get hired from them. I had been hired from EPAs and I have many colleagues who've been hired from EPAs and from ECCs. Plainly it's better if your agent gets you an appointment so that you’re really settled and you're doing material from the show and not just your general book. Because a lot of times you're aiming at something and you don't quite know what it is that they want. Whereas when you went to an agent's office, you've seen material, you know what the scenes are, you have some idea what the piece is. Again, with all EPAs you should research the project and if it's a new play, you should research the writer, find out the style it is they write. Going as informed as you can. Sometimes if EPA, they will have you read from slide in which case, let’s say your audition is at 2 in the afternoon. My advice is always if you've got the time, go by Equity in the morning or wherever they're holding the audition and take pictures of the sides, which are usually taped to the wall of the ones that you want to read. Then you can study them for a couple of hours before you come back to your audition. But you don’t get the slides until maybe 20 minutes before your audition. That's the basics of a union call. At those calls, they will often see Equity membership candidate that is people who are accruing points towards membership and if time permits nonunion people as well. But at a lot of auditions that I've been given this last year most of the calls that we are not seeing, nonunion or [inaudible 00:50:35] today. So you have to find alternative ways to get into the room.
Martin: I have a question about just auditioning. What would be one or two, something different. You already mentioned earlier about seeing other casting directors, but what would it be one or two additional tips that you could give to an actor who struggles to get called back after auditioning? Either tips for the audition itself or anything else. People who are struggling in auditions basically
Eric: There are a bunch of things to take into consideration. The most important one is the question always is are you reading from their material or are you auditioning from your own material? The mistake most people make when they are auditioning with their own material is they have not chosen something that is showing them off in a way that will get them work. You need to be ruthless with that. I advise to keep a list of auditions of which photograph did I submit for this job? What was I wearing the day I went into this job? I would keep a list of which. Say it’s a monologue or a song, what did I think, what did I mean that day? If you see a monologue that you’ve done for a period of let's say six months and it's not getting any response like none, it might be time to question whether or not that monologue is showing you up as well as you think it is. At that point you go to a coach and you say, take a look at this and tell me, am I just not doing it well or does it not match me? Because when actors have a problem doing it, they often try to aim at what they think the casting people are looking for, instead of aiming at who they are and their ethics. If you are aiming at who you are and ethics you might go in and be wrong for a part of the show, but you might be right for something else in the show or right for something that the casting office is doing in three months. If they don't see you, they just see what you think they wanted to see often they can't find you, they just can't find you in that match.
I would say the number one thing is to be sure that the material you're presenting matches you as clearly as possible. Then from there, if you're going in on set, if you've got a question regarding pronunciation and you've got a question that is a true question, like they didn't provide the script. Can you tell me what has just happened prior to this scene? I have choices I've made, but this information might help me. Those are legitimate questions, but if you're going to ask questions that are going to just take time they're going to think you didn't prep. When somebody asks me if I have any questions as a general rule, I will say, if there's something you'd want to offer, I’m happy to hear it. Otherwise I made the choices. I'd love to show them to you and then if you want to adjust something, great and I just do my thing. I once did an audition for a show that I ended up booking, but I went in, I did my thing. They said, do you have any questions? No. I said given what you've provided me I made choices inaudible 00:54:00]. I finished it and the creative team was all [inaudible 00:54:03] because the directors said so sorry, we're not laughing at you. It just really, we now realized that we should have provided proper information. Everything you did was great. It's just 180 degrees from what this scene is about. I said, okay, so let me know. I said, that was the perfect note. I said I could work with that. I literally took what I had done, I just turned it on its head and went in another direction and I booked the show. Sometimes when people ask questions, they're not really listening to the answers.
Consequently, the director may give you a very important piece of information and you may processes in a way that doesn't indicate you heard what he said and then you just look stupid. You just look like somebody who can't take direction. You want to be careful about asking for help if you really don't think you need it. Now on the other hand, I went in on something for a wonderful, television directors are almost never in the room at your first call. But I went in on this one project and the director was there and the casting director had worked with me before and they asked if I had any questions, and I said, actually, I do have one question. Because I was presenting a piece of art to somebody. I said, "Is it the French or the Flemish pronunciation for this piece of ours?" The director was kind of stunned. He goes, "I'm just fascinated that you know there's a difference." I said, "It's in the script and I didn't know what it was. So I thought maybe I should look it up as it's a Flemish tapestry. So the title is obviously Flemish, but in the piece, should I pronounce it French style or would he be doing it in the Flemish?" He says, "Could I hear both?" I said, "Sure." So we did the scene and I booked the job. Of course when I got to set they had changed the name of the piece of art entirely so that was hilarious. But my point is that was a legitimate question. It engaged the director but also told him I had done my research and that I knew there was a difference. It wasn't a show offy the question because I easily could have done it with the French and he could've said the writer is not going to like that. I might never have known. It's a balancing act with questions. It really is.
Martin: That is fantastic. There's one side question and we might've covered this a little bit earlier when you were talking about how you kind of do your targeting for casting directors and everything. But just in terms of advice on getting an agent do you have any advice for actors who are looking to get an agent?
Eric: The best advice I can give anyone is ask everyone, you know. You do not know who is going to connect to you. I met my first agent in the city through my singing partner. When I chose to leave them, I left them because I had been introduced, I was working at a show. One of the other stars of the show, his wife was an agent and she saw the show and was interested in me and brought me in. So I went with a very strong agency for a number of years. When that did not continue and I moved on basically I sat in my apartment and thought I've got to start over here. It was actually the business at HB. I walked into the class that day, I got the note on Friday we were starting on Monday. I walked in and said I give an assignment every year, every season. They have 10 weeks and you have to set up a series of projects that you are going to accomplish on the next 10 weeks and then we follow the progress forward for 10 weeks. They did their thing and I said okay. I'm gonna include myself this season because I am no longer with my agency which means I am unrepresented. Which means I need new pictures. I need a new website or adjustments to my current one. I need a new agent. I needed a reel, a new reel. I will have all of this done in 10 weeks. That sounded like I was crazy.
But on the day of the 10th class, I came in and they all did different presentations and then they said so how did you do? I turned on my computer, I showed them the new website, I pulled up on a computer that new photos which had just come in and just been retouched. I showed them the reel that we had just completed, which praise the Lord we passed the ammunition and now it's been done many times because of wonderful credits. Then I just PDF'd the email from the agency that had just offered to sign me. I got that agent the way I told you to get an agent. I told everyone what I do. One of my clients who I coach who got his first Broadway show through me said let me take your stuff to my agent, see what he thinks and that's how I met him. My current agent I met the same way. I told several friends it’s time for a change it’s not going the way I wanted to go. A friend that I signed with somebody new they’re very hungry, they're incredibly nice and I think you might be a match for them.
I met with them and it was a match. They’re people that I respect and I love. As with anything, you're always looking at the agency and trying to decide is this where I'm going to stay? Am I committed to these people or is this a place I’m going to be while I figure out if they can do what they need to do? You can say you have an agency til you're blue in the face, but if they can't make a phone call or get you in the door, you might as well not have an agent. That's a key for people is to just say I want to be represented because it does help me get in. But not being represented will not keep you from getting in. You just have to redouble your efforts in terms of you're contacting people and letting people know you're around. I do think word of mouth and personal references is fastest way to get an agent.
Last night at Actor's Connection I was there for something else, but they had an agent night. There were 6 agents there, there were three different rooms of people, agents throughout and I guess they moved from room to room to room. There were three agents there that I had the opportunity to interact with through clients of theirs over the years. If I hadn't already been committed to taking the class, I would have almost done it even though I re-signed just because I would have liked to have seen what other opinions were out there.
But as it happened walking out of the room, one of my old agents was in the panel and we stopped and we talked and now we're going to have lunch in a couple of weeks. I'm not saying that I would go back with her or that she would be interested in having me. I'm just saying that that's another one of those 'don't throw away your contacts.' You don't know where they're going to take you. Or how they're going to take you. Let's say you did my case, I teach voice and I have four students who are with agent X. First place I would go would be to say if any of you recommend me, would any of you be willing to take my stuff in or to say something? I've walked into rooms before with agents and they said, oh, I know your name, you’re on my client’s episode list. Don’t you know that agent called my client and said what do you like? That gets you interviews. Cause it's all people are saying, yeah, you'd like working with him. He's a good one. You can ask if you've worked with a casting director that you feel you have rapport for, I don't mean a casting director that you've met in the class. I'm talking about somebody who's hired you, someone with who you have a relationship. There was a casting director in Todd Bailer's office a long time ago who’s now a very big casting director, but he was one of the first casting directors ever to give me a list of agents and say if nobody responds from your submission, tell me and I'll make calls. A casting director can get you into an agent's office because right off the bat they're saying I hired this person. I'm telling you this is the door you don't have to beat down.
Martin: I just have one really quick clarification question. At the very beginning when I had asked you the question, you said, first off tell everyone you know or ask everyone you know in regards to the agent. But my question was just for clarification on what do you mean by ask everyone you know? What do you actually say to people?
Eric: I think you pretty much have to be very blunt. Say, "Hey I'm between agents right now and if you know anybody taking people on, do you have any references, anybody that you can connect me with?" There's no shame in it. When I say ask everyone you know I literally mean that. I have a friend of mine who was at big attorney in a major firm and his wife is just a socialite. She's spending time with lots of people. A friend of mine happened to be at a party with her and she was saying what do you do? She said well, I’m an actress but I'm between agents right now. She said hey you should meet my friend so and so. She would love to meet you. My friend said that would be wonderful. Can you help me do that? She said don't be silly. I'll do that right now. She's right over there. So she walked her over, introduced her and said this is so and so and she's a friend of my friend Eric Michaels and if he likes her then I know she’s really interesting so you should talk to her. They had a glass of wine together and they chatted for a while together. The girl was really smart. She didn’t overplay it because it was social situation. But she said may I have permission to give you a call this week and continue the conversation? The agent said you know what, let me think about it and I'll call you. Give me your card. So the girl gave her card and trusted it and three days later she got a phone call.
Martin: That's really, really good because those are the types of specifics that you don't really hear. Like people will run either classes or post info and articles online and it's like ask people you know, and you're kind of like, well, what does that mean? Having those very specific things like you just explained that story makes it a lot easier for an actor to understand like, oh, okay, I get it now.
Eric: Yeah. You think I'm only going to people that I know who are actors. If you're going to target only actors then you're limiting yourself. The directors work with agents all the time. Casting people work with agents all the time, every creative in the business knows somebody we know was an agent. In this particular case and this couple they're not connected to the business at all and they happen to be friends with somebody who is. So you just don't know. If you're not willing to ask for it, then the answer from the universe is always going to be no.
Martin: Totally. That's awesome. My final question is just on your general overall advice. If you had to pick one or two things that you've done in your career to promote yourself, out of all the different things that you tried and everything, you kind of narrowed it down to one or two top things that you think have been the most helpful in moving your acting career forward. What would those be?
Eric: First is rebranding and I don't mean that negative 10 degree rebranding. I mean reimagining what it is that I'm selling. The example that I would use would be if I'm bored with oatmeal and I don't want to buy oatmeal anymore, but then I walk in and somebody get oatmeal with cinnamon and raisins in it and I don't have to bother with it, I can just have that I'm more inclined to buy that product. The actor is no different. You passed the [inaudible 01:07:06] of your career, you know you're a juvenile, then you're hopefully elite, then you're character and then you’re [inaudible 01:07:12]. All in along that process you have to look and say, well what are the opportunities that are given for someone at this point in time? In my 50s I would say television became a big thing for me because there were so many parts for senators and judges and doctors. I have a reel that I used called Eric Michael's Corrupt Judges. It's just one liners of judges on every show you can imagine either being a jerk or being nice, but always the judge. The things that I have found the most useful have been taking a good solid look at the materials that I'm using to submit. An example would be I had a photograph that I love that I used for many years. I spoke to the agent that I was with at the time. I said, I think we're not getting what we want. They said, maybe I should get you phots, we love this picture. Everybody loves his picture. Remember the story I told you about girl who was auditioning for people and she never got called in? Same thing. In my head when they said didn’t make sense. In my head was you're submitting this picture over and over again and everybody said, oh, what a cute picture.
You really love your headshot, but it's not getting any results. That means it's just the wrong picture. So for the first time ever I rethought how I wanted to be seen and I had a set of photos done. First time I've ever done it, it was seven pictures. This is before I knew you. I let my hair grow out, my beard grow out and I started from there. I had what I called the burnt out artist photo. I had the cynical detective on a homicide squad photo. I had this sleazy professor photo. I had the hot young business man, eager beaver in the office still moving up the corporate ladder. There were seven of them and I started using these. We started getting auditions almost immediately and the reason was because you could actually look at the picture and say, Oh yes, I see him in this part. Whereas my other picture everybody liked it and it was great, but it was a generic thing. Interestingly flash forward, after using this mixed images for about three years and I reverted into a single shot again because by that time a lot of the casting people I hit been targeting knew me so I didn't have to send a different picture. Rebranding becomes a major part of what you do.
The other thing that I would say is the most important thing if you want to get your career forward is getting content. I can't tell you how many casting people complained that they're looking at someone, they need somebody to audition, they hear, they see someone in a class, whatever, and they go to look them up and they can't find any content online. A singer who doesn't have any music online, an actor who has no scenes, no reals, no nothing. There's too many ways to create and get content now that's not excusable. You have to have it. Content is what’s going to get you work.
Martin: That makes sense.
Eric: The rebranding or really looking at your brand and making sure your materials represents you exactly and secondarily, making sure your content is up-to-date and up to snuff. I would say those are my two top suggestions for getting your career to move again.
Martin: Awesome. Yeah, that's excellent. That answers that question perfectly, which is if you had to give some advice to an actor who is stuck at a plateau in their career, they would want to look at those two primary things as a starting place. Then kind of continue if they've already done those things and they're really good, they look at other stuff. But to finish up, is there anything else that you would like to say to an actor who might be listening to this and is really looking for something that could help them move forward or maybe they're feeling discouraged because they're feeling stuck or whatever. Anything that you would want to say before we wrap this up?
Eric: I was introduced to a very short book that I think was written in 1912 by career coach. By the way, I highly recommend if you’re really stuck - call a career coach or take a class with someone like you've. Not to promote you too much Martin. But what you need sometimes are other points of view. I took what I would call a career coach on for about nine months. Among the things that she required me to do were going back to the basics, goal listing, stuff like that. But the most important thing, she introduced me to you with the book called As A Man Thinketh. You can get that book online. It's like 30 pages long, it’s free. It’s been around forever. The principle behind the book is that our thoughts are seeds and if you plant nothing but thorns, you can't be surprised when you grow thorns.
If you're planting a garden with beautiful things, you shouldn't be surprised when beautiful things grow. So the idea behind the book is to fill your head with very positive thoughts. And beware the negative thoughts. Look out for when you're saying, "I can't do this or this is not going to work or I'm so angry today." Look for what you feel good about you. Look for what you feel good about your career and do three things every day for your career, just for your career. Forget about the things you want to do for you like the mani pedi or going out for cocktails with friends. Just three simple things that could be done in 20 minute. Even if it's like a quick phone call or a text to somebody or if you're thinking about photos, go look at a new photographers website. Just three simple things that you can point to at the end of the day and say, I did nothing else today but I did this. Believe it or not, it does change your point of view. It really does. This book was invaluable to me.
Martin: Awesome. Well, this was fantastic. I want to, on behalf of everybody listening to this and definitely myself, thank you a lot for your time and your generous sharing of all of these really cool stories and things that have happened in your career and different people that you've had the opportunity to meet, all of this stuff. All of this, I think they're gonna find it really, really fascinating and helpful. So I want to really thank you!